System Automation and Nat-05 Tuner

System Automation can only switch the NAT-05 input to 552 on & off,  but it can't control the preset stations.   

Mike, thanks for the reply

Yes, I could see on the Naim app that I could set System Automation to on & off for the tuner. I’m not sure what that would do though. If it can’t control the presets, what value is it? Can it control anything at all on the Nat-05? What is the point of the RC5 input then?

Hi Arthur,   I find the ability to switch the NAT in & out of the system very useful & use the NAT remote to scroll through presets.

What to do ??,  I assume you mean how does it connect:    I'm a bit confused with your system ....  "Gotta get rid of some of this stuff " ....  as you have a pile on your profile & none show a 552 or NAT-05.   2nd question,  are you using a CD player and/or DAC along with the NDS on the amp you intend to have the NAT-05  ???       

You will need to get a cable to connect NDS (RC5) to 552 (RC5)    The cable you need is a 3.5mm jack to RCA phono – a mono 3.5 jack is preferred but a stereo jack will work,  any cable will do,  no need to be expensive as its just an electrical link,  mine's a cheapo from Amazon & cost less than $5.   

Lemme know the answers to the above & I'll write up how to do it.    

There are two RC-Out jacks on the NDx.  I use a mono Y-adapter on one of these so I can control the NAC, nDAC, and CD.  If the NAT cannot be controlled from the Naim app, I guess I would only use the RC jack on the NAT for an IR repeater, if the NAT is hidden in a cabinet; correct?

If that works with the NAT’s IR remote, I wonder why NDx System Automation + Naim app could not emulate those same commands over the wire.

Coincidentally, I am receiving a NAT05 XS today.  I will be interested to test.

Nick

Mike, thanks for the response. 

I have an NDS/Nac552/CD555/Nap500/Linn Kremlin(tuner)/Linn Komri’s as my primary system. I have the RC5 connection already between my NDS/Nac552/CD555 and am presently using the Naim iPad app to control the devices. It’s all very convenient except for the tuner bit. If I want to listen to my Kremlin tuner, I can easily switch to that source with the Naim app ( or remote control). There is no RC5 connection on the Kremlin tuner though, so I am unable to change stations or presets without using a remote control.

My hope was that I could replace the Kremlin tuner with a Nat-05 tuner and be able to control the stations with the Naim app.

On another separate system I have an N-272 with built in tuner. It’s all right there iRadio/fm/and HDX/Tidal access. All very easy. 

Arthur

Hi Arthur,  you look to be pretty well set with the NDS & CD555 already hooked up.  It's just a question of linking in the NAT-05 to show as an icon on the iPad screen.  This is not via an RC5 cable,  that is only for NDS-CDP to 552.      As I said before,  its not full control over the presets as there is no app functionality for that,  it just enables your iPad to switch the NAT in & out & to auto change the 552 input (button).

In Naim app – Settings > Input Settings - enable Pre-Tuner, that's what it will show as in the app,  I rename it in the app as 'FM Tuner'

In NDS Display using the remote,   scroll to System Automation.    System Automation > Pre-Amp > Enable > your NDS on System Auto will already have this set to > Yes.      Scroll down to Pre-Tuner (or whatever you've renamed it)  & > Enabled > Yes

Thats it:   Pre-Tuner or whatever you name it will show on the iPad & when you touch the iPad screen icon it will auto change to the 552 Tuner input button & the NAT will play whatever preset it is on.

Mike, thanks for the reply. That is basically the setup that I have now with my Kremlin tuner. Getting a Nat-05 would just be a sideways move then. No real improvement. The Kremlin is a pretty good tuner too, so I guess I’ll stick with what I have. 

In hindsight an NDS with a built in fm tuner module would have been the solution.

Arthur

Arthur Bye posted:

Mike, thanks for the reply. That is basically the setup that I have now with my Kremlin tuner. Getting a Nat-05 would just be a sideways move then. No real improvement. The Kremlin is a pretty good tuner too, so I guess I’ll stick with what I have. 

In hindsight an NDS with a built in fm tuner module would have been the solution.

Arthur

I have the NDX-FM, because there is no FM version of the NDS.  It is very good.  I am adding the NAT to learn what it is capable of — it is said to be much better than my NDX-FM.  Tall order, I think.  I will report back, esp re automation findings.

Nick

NickSeattle posted:

I have the NDX-FM, because there is no FM version of the NDS.  It is very good.  I am adding the NAT to learn what it is capable of — it is said to be much better than my NDX-FM.  Tall order, I think.  I will report back, esp re automation findings.

Nick

Have I got this right, Nick, your NAT05 with an aerial on the roof will go straight into the NAC552?

Looking forward to reports.

Chris

Christopher_M posted:

Have I got this right, Nick, your NAT05 with an aerial on the roof will go straight into the NAC552?

Looking forward to reports.

Chris

Nearly right, Chris.  I have a Magnum Dynalab ST-2 two flights up in the attic — on its way to the roof, eventually. This antenna into the NDX-FM gives me the best FM I have ever had already.  At first, I will move the antenna to the NAT, then see if a splitter will serve both radios without too much compromise.

Nick

Recessed, push-on 75 ohm adapter reqired, but not included in the box with my pre-loved NAT.   Anybody know if it was supposed to be in the box when new?

This will delay my testing for a day or two.

Nick

I bought a used NAT05 recently. I faced just the same problem as you do now Nick ,with your 05XS. There wasn't one in the box. Luckily I had one in my 'man draw' in the kitchen, from a life with an earlier tuner.

C.

Hi Nick,  no 75 ohm stuff included in the box,  just power & IC.   

Unlike US who commonly use 300 ohm antenna cable,  in Europe we have no need for 75 ohm adapters as TV & Radio antenna cables are all 75 ohm coax from end to end.  

Thanks, Mike.

My cable is a threaded F connector.  That is what the NDX-FM uses.

I wonder why Naim made the disparate choices. Maybe threaded is not as mechanically-decoupled, and is thus lower quality?

Cable co seems to prefer threaded F over push-on.

Nick

Nick,

my Linn Kremlin(tuner), N-272, and Superuniti all came with screw on F-type connectors for the tuner section(s). I think that’s the way they are sold in the USA. I’m using all three right now on a Ron Smith Galaxie aerial with no issues. You will lose about 5db of signal strength for every additional connection. 

Some older tuners I had before, Naim Nat-01, Tandberg, and Arcam had the European style push on connectors. They typically came with the adaptor for the F type connector sold in the US.

Hard to emphasize how important a good antenna with a rotator is.

Arthur 

Hi, Arthur.

Push-on male can work with threaded F female, but some discourage the mismatch, recommending a proper adapter. 

I am still curious why Naim made different decisions on NDX-FM and NAT05 XS.  I trust Naim never does these things arbitrarily.

Nick

NickSeattle posted:

Thanks, Mike.

My cable is a threaded F connector.  That is what the NDX-FM uses.

I wonder why Naim made the disparate choices. Maybe threaded is not as mechanically-decoupled, and is thus lower quality?

Cable co seems to prefer threaded F over push-on.

Nick

Hi again,  whoops forgot that one.    I guess it’s because the traditional FM radio antenna plug has been Belling & Lee & the move to F type came with DAB & the NDX module is DAB/FM.   As it happens all my TV & radio cables are F type except at the actual sets,  I originally had an F type adaptor to my NAT but i found a real neat & well made 90 degree angled  B&L & have stuck with that with both radio & TV set connections.

I don’t think that Naim was being arbitrary about the use of these connectors. 15 years ago all the European kit was speced with the push on type connectors for sale over there. Anything that came over the Pond had the F type connectors. My original Nat-01 in the US, had the push on type with an “F” adapter included in the box, but that was a very low volume product, and was the exception. Perhaps your Nat-05XS was from Canada originally. Maybe they still use the push on type up there still.

I’ve had many tuners over the years and all of them have had “F” connections fitted, for USA use, with the exception of the low volume manufacturers like Tandberg, Arcam & Naim (Nat-01). They all usually came with an adapter.

i never noticed any type of significant signal degradation, perhaps 5db, from the adapters either.  I’m sure there’s an answer to some of this on the fmtunerinfo.com website  

Perhaps a query to Richard Dane might answer this.

This is really much, much less relevant than having a good outside aerial with a rotor. A good antenna setup is much, much more important than all of this adapter/splitter stuff.

Arthur

Thanks again, Arthur and Mike.

I have ordered the precise right-angle adapters for both my NDX-FM and NAT, threaded and push-on respectively.

Now, back to system automation.

Nick

Mike-B posted:

Hi Nick,  no 75 ohm stuff included in the box,  just power & IC.   

Unlike US who commonly use 300 ohm antenna cable,  in Europe we have no need for 75 ohm adapters as TV & Radio antenna cables are all 75 ohm coax from end to end.  

Yes the US have or had a penchant for balanced RF cables  (300 ohms) where as we in the UK have used unbalanced / coax for many years now which is typically at 75 ohm or 50 ohms. Receivers are almost always 75 ohm. Unbalanced coax is far easier to handle and route... balanced cable needs care near metallic frames, other wires or structures... so could never really understand its appeal for consumer markets.

Simon

Thanks, Simon.

I am only concerned due to the fact that the threaded F termination on my antenna works directly into my NDX-FM, but needs an adapter to work on my new NAT05 XS, and only now have learned the terms “Flex-F” (for push-on F) and “Belling-Lee” (PAL).  I am unsure if Flex-F and Belling-Lee work optimally together without a suitable adapter.

I wonder why Naim chose what they did for each.

I am on the road to getting the right adapters.  

Nick

Naim chose what they did with each as I described in my previous post.   Belling-Lee is the stnd for Radio & TV in Europe,  F type is the stnd thats been adopted for DAB  - your NDX radio module is DAB/ FM   (F type was originally designed for satellite)  

This pic is the F-Coax  adaptor I used to have with my NAT (prior to a wired B-L)   The 90 degree adaptors are harder to find than the most common straights (if you can't find one locally www shopping is easiest)   They are completely compatible as both F type & B-L are 75 ohm.

Ah, DAB was the decider.  Thanks, Mike.

B&L adapter has been ordered.

Nick

Simon, your prior response about coax leaves me with a question about wiring. FM antennas, in the past, quite a while ago, had two conductor parallel insulated conductor leads (not coax) that would come off the antenna and were held away from the building, and other potential objects of RF interference, with metal stand offs that would hold the lead about 6” away from the building. That was standard practice for mounting a rooftop antenna and lead for a very long time. This parallel conductor lead had to be carefully installed from the roof top all the way down to the receiving device in the house, with the stand off, to avoid unwanted RF. I’m pretty sure they were 300 ohm rated too. Similar to the wiring off of Rabbit Ears.  At some poInt we had to start installing Balun adapters to these leads, when TVs and radios started using the F type inputs. 

That at all disappeared with the advent of coax wiring. I had always understood that the inherent shielding in coax reduced or eliminated that majority of the concern about RF interference and coax was pretty much run anywhere. At least, that’s what everyone started to do. Your remarks about balanced versus unbalanced coax are new to me. Could you explain further? I was also unaware of the 300 ohm vs 75 ohm differences between Euro coax and the 300 ohm we have in the USA. What was that about? Why the difference? The PAL versus “F” type connections, or Balun adapters, never seemed that important to me. They all seemed to work the same with little differences in actual performance.

Mostly just wondering if there are qualitative issues here.  Or is this just a Metric, versus Inches versus Whitworth thing?

Arthur

Hi Arthur, your description is spot on for the balanced leads of yesteryear prior to coax. The two conductors of the feed are balanced differential feed. The balanced nature of the leads means they effectively rejects interference in the signal by cancelling the interference out in the signal. However if the balanced pair is brought near a metallic object then this will break the balanced nature of the feed, and therefore any interference will not be rejected as effectively and performance will additionally suffer.

The characteristic impedance of the balanced feed is 300 ohms and is determined essentially by the width between the conductors... which is held constant. Now efficient antennas like dipoles and Yagi antennas are balanced antennas. Therefore balanced feeds are ultimately the most efficient at the expense of special handling and positioning.

Coax came along, and was a lot simpler to route. Coax is unbalanced, that is it has a single core with a ground reference shield. As long as the core is surrounded by the shield, any interference flows to the shield rather than the core. The characteristic impedance of Coax is typically 50 or 75 ohms, and with consumer electronics it’s generally always 75 ohms. 

However to work effectively with balanced antenna designs, a transformer is required at the feedpoint at the antenna, called a BalUn, basically converting a balanced signal from the antenna into an unbalanced one suitable to be carried by the coax. This does however introduce a bit of loss, but is usually seen a worthwhile cost due to the increase in flexibility... Additionally the receiver antenna input is designed to receive either a balanced or unbalanced feed. (Balanced ribbon  cable usually at 300 ohms - or unbalanced coax at 75 ohms) 

It also means a balanced antenna (dipole, Yagi etc) connected to coax without a BalUn, will mean the coax turns into a pseudo balanced feed and will not reject interference effectively,  will be sensitive to nearby metallic structures and will lead to reduced antenna performance... certainly not good news for high quality FM stereo decoding, where the stereo differential modulated signal requires high signal to noise ratio for effective decoding.

i hope that helps

Simon