Post firmware update SQ controversy.

dave marshall posted:

A few folks have attempted to correlate reactions to the recent firmware updates, based on the model of streamer used, whilst several are expressing their displeasure at the outcome of having performed the update, and the subsequent reaction from Naim.

I've opened a fresh thread on this, merely to try and ensure that it is seen by someone at Naim HQ, as I do wonder if a quick poll on the numbers happy with the updates might reveal that the outcome has been less dependent on the streamer in use, but is, instead, based on whether on was doing the update via macOS or Windows.

I'm no computer expert, but it's a possible explanation which doesn't seem to have been touched on so far, hence the new topic.

Hopefully some of the IT folks at Naim might read this, and find it helpful.

Should, of course, read "whether one was doing the update"

Sorry!

10 Threads on the streaming forum at the moment (and that is only counting page 1) relating to app/firmware/sound issues.

So clearly there is no issue and it is just a minority affected (Naim Response).

Ok, it’s information no one has given, so  +1 for  Windows 10 patched to the latest level at the time. 

dave marshall posted:

A few folks have attempted to correlate reactions to the recent firmware updates, based on the model of streamer used, whilst several are expressing their displeasure at the outcome of having performed the update, and the subsequent reaction from Naim.

I've opened a fresh thread on this, merely to try and ensure that it is seen by someone at Naim HQ, as I do wonder if a quick poll on the numbers happy with the updates might reveal that the outcome has been less dependent on the streamer in use, but is, instead, based on whether on was doing the update via macOS or Windows.

I'm no computer expert, but it's a possible explanation which doesn't seem to have been touched on so far, hence the new topic.

Hopefully some of the IT folks at Naim might read this, and find it helpful.

The updates on the new Unitis are automatically done by internet. No windows or Mac needed.

i) NDX - Update via cheapo Dell running Windows 10, using a USB cable I suspect probably came with an old Garmin satnav, went fine, very happy with the SQ after a very minor change in speaker position to cope with the increase in bass.

ii) Uniti Nova, OTA update from the interim 2.3.1 (I think that was the number, the one that came out about a week before), again happy with the SQ, slight improvement in clarity and tighter bass, just as involving as before.

iii) 3 * Muso Qbs, OTA, not really noticed any difference, but I've only used the kitchen one, so it has to compete with cooking sounds.

Hi,

I've just spoken with Naim support, to pass on my thoughts about whether or not the use of macOS, as compared to Windows, might have had some effect on the outcome regarding SQ, for those using "legacy" streamers.

They agree that the drivers used to carry out the download and subsequent installation would be different, depending on the operating system used, and that they are indeed looking into this.

So, who knows, this might eventually clear things up for those less than happy with the update.

Updated on the day the upgrade was announced, all via a Lenovo Thinkpad Windows 10 laptop fully patched and up to date.

Sound quality initially felt like it had lost some ooomph, but the new version is now head & shoulders better once the initial surprise at the change had dispersed. 

ND5XS, into Nait 5i & PMC Twenty.23s

NDS using ASUS notebook with Windows 7. Found v4.6 altered the balance (midrange too prominent) and soundstage too wide and diffuse. More detail but less engagement. Reverted back to v4.4 which I find much more engaging and much better balance across frequency range.

dave marshall posted:

Hi,

I've just spoken with Naim support, to pass on my thoughts about whether or not the use of macOS, as compared to Windows, might have had some effect on the outcome regarding SQ, for those using "legacy" streamers.

They agree that the drivers used to carry out the download and subsequent installation would be different, depending on the operating system used, and that they are indeed looking into this.

So, who knows, this might eventually clear things up for those less than happy with the update.

Hi Dave,

Of course the drivers used to update the units will be different between Mac OSX and Windows but they don't have any bearing on the final sound quality of the update itself...

Cheers

Phil

Win10 on a ThinkPad X1 Carbon updating NDS.

Always went flawlessly on my old ThinkPad running Win7, once I had installed the drivers, which was an easy task.

I had no end of trouble finding and installing the appropriate Win10 drivers. I probably had about 15 attempts, using various permutations of source files, unzipped and run at  various locations on the HDD, and repeat attempts at installing the same drivers from the same location, when for no apparent reason, the installation spontaneously worked.

I hooked it up to the NDS to check, and it all communicated and put the NDS is update mode. I didn't proceed beyond that because I had already dug out my old laptop running Win7 and performed the update successfully, at the first attempt.

Harry posted:

Win10 on a ThinkPad X1 Carbon updating NDS.

Always went flawlessly on my old ThinkPad running Win7, once I had installed the drivers, which was an easy task.

I had no end of trouble finding and installing the appropriate Win10 drivers. I probably had about 15 attempts, using various permutations of source files, unzipped and run at  various locations on the HDD, and repeat attempts at installing the same drivers from the same location, when for no apparent reason, the installation spontaneously worked.

I hooked it up to the NDS to check, and it all communicated and put the NDS is update mode. I didn't proceed beyond that because I had already dug out my old laptop running Win7 and performed the update successfully, at the first attempt.

Hi Harry,

You haven't said whether your NDS has a Mini-USB update port or an RS232 update port but if it is a Mini-USB then the drivers for that are linked to in the instructions and should be correct for Windows 10.

If you have an RS232 update port on your NDS and you are using a USB to RS232 adapter then the manufacturers website should have drivers.

It appears that frequently the manufacturers of USB to serial adapters don't update their drivers (and there are issues with 'cloned' Prolific chipsets used in some USB to Serial adapters as the official Prolific drivers for Windows 10 no longer work with the clone chipsets) so I generally tend to recommend this USB to Serial adapter when asked...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Conve...ords=ftdi+usb+serial

...as they have proven very reliable and work with both Windows and OSX.

Cheers

Phil

Phil Harris posted:

dave marshall posted:

Hi,

I've just spoken with Naim support, to pass on my thoughts about whether or not the use of macOS, as compared to Windows, might have had some effect on the outcome regarding SQ, for those using "legacy" streamers.

They agree that the drivers used to carry out the download and subsequent installation would be different, depending on the operating system used, and that they are indeed looking into this.

So, who knows, this might eventually clear things up for those less than happy with the update.

Hi Dave,

Of course the drivers used to update the units will be different between Mac OSX and Windows but they don't have any bearing on the final sound quality of the update itself...

Cheers

Phil

Cheers Phil,

Ah well, it was just a random thought to try to find some common aspect in the update procedure.

Dave.

I think a lot of the differences are encapsulated in the saying;

Nowt so queer as folk

It's the same with Roon 1.5, many notice an improvement, many the opposite.

.sjb

You hear Laurel I hear Yanny perhaps?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/0...ce/yanny-laurel.html

Yanny, good high frequency hearing

Peter1480 posted:

Yanny, good high frequency hearing

Well interestingly, I'm one of the ones who felt 2.6 was worse on my Uniti Nova - I wonder if others who feel the same are Yannys or Laurels!  Am I oversensitive to high frequencies (if the original audio clip was 'laurel') hence my feeling that 2.6 is a bit shrill and shouty on female vocals but very detailed, or perhaps do I hear less low end which is why I feel that's missing with 2.6?

There's something odd at play I have to say.

Alley Cat posted:

You hear Laurel I hear Yanny perhaps?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/0...ce/yanny-laurel.html

Mrs H & I, ‘Laurel’ every time & my kids ‘Yanny’. Mrs H then takes dog for a walk and now hears ‘Yanny’!

G

The first few times I heard it, I heard "Yanny". Then when it was explained that most people heard "Laurel" all I could hear was "Laurel".  What gives?

On my laptop I hear Laurel,  whereas on TV & with my laptop feeding the TV & including the laptop>TV into my NDX/SN,  then I hear Yanny 

The theory is that if you hear Laurel it indicates you have a propensity to hear low frequencies,  Yanny means you are hearing higher frequencies.    My test above shows it might be what equipment you are using to listen with.   

Yanny through the telly's sound bar. Laurel on my PC.

Yanny all the time on my Dell monitor speaker, until Yanny for 30 secs on Airpods from iPhone, close my eyes, heard both and now hear Laurel most of the time and same on Dell speaker!

There are four of us here at work right now...two hear Laurel,two hear Yanny,WTF!

Dave

i am a windows 10 user and updated my NDX (2014 model) with new firmware

i had no issues in the download process and commented at the time, how good I felt the upgrade was, i thought it was the DR coming in on my amp but no it was the firmware

I find it more analogue - more detail & focus overall a really good & FOC upgrade

for those members who don't find this you can go back, but I for one won't

Jonn posted:

NDS using ASUS notebook with Windows 7. Found v4.6 altered the balance (midrange too prominent) and soundstage too wide and diffuse. More detail but less engagement. Reverted back to v4.4 which I find much more engaging and much better balance across frequency range.

Hi John

Try reinstalling 4.6, I also had a similar experience to you on first install, bloated bass and midrange, sounded slow and lacked prat. I reinstalled 4.6 and it sounds a bit better, can't explain why but the difference is definitely a bit more subtle on the second install, so worth a try. In saying that though, I've gone back to 4.4 once again, IMO it's just so much more engaging and rhythmic. I''m glad I could go back without any problems, but considering the number of NDS users who are unhappy with the latest update, I think Naim needs to rethink there testing procedure?

Cheers,

Loks

Alley Cat posted:

You hear Laurel I hear Yanny perhaps?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/0...ce/yanny-laurel.html

Yanny, every time, regardless of whether through the laptop speakers or if I put on the Dragonfly and headphones. I've tried really hard to hear Laurel, but just can't. Fascinating stuff, but perhaps better to discuss on a dedicated thread...