Post firmware update SQ controversy.

I heard ‘Yanny’ and I like firmware v4.6 on my NDS. 

I’ll try again later and see if I can convince myself it’s Laurel. If I do, I hope I’ll still like my NDS with v4.6 firmware!

Updated my NDS via min-USB using a Win 10 laptop and didn't like the SQ.  Big reduction in bass extension with the mid range being more prominent.  Now, if we could have the mid range changes plus the bass from FW v4.4 that would be ideal! 

However I would be very surprised if the updating device played any part on this.  I would expect the firmware in the NDS to do a checksum of the uploaded data to ensure data integrity before applying it.  Then given that this is 100% in the digital domain where timing, noise, D to A conversions are not relevant (to update process) either the file is correct and can be applied or it can't.

I hear yanny, clearly must be down to the ethernet cable attaching my MusoQB to the network ;-)

Yanny/4.6 (on NDS) camp here.

Richard Dane posted:

Alley Cat posted:

You hear Laurel I hear Yanny perhaps?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/0...ce/yanny-laurel.html

Yanny, every time, regardless of whether through the laptop speakers or if I put on the Dragonfly and headphones. I've tried really hard to hear Laurel, but just can't. Fascinating stuff, but perhaps better to discuss on a dedicated thread...

I nearly did post in Padded Cell, it just made me realise that all our listening experiences are so subjective - not only based on personal preferences but also it would seem tied to factors we cannot contemplate relating to our own auditory hardware and auditory processing, age-relatd changes in these and the frequency responses of all parts of the output chain when playing music.

Obsydian mentioned it a few times but perhaps the thing to focus on is that there have been changes to SQ introduced in firmware and not so much that people felt these were positive or negative, though clearly where negative it begs the question why.

Alley Cat makes a good point. I am beginning to wonder if 4.6-gate is in the end down to personal preference. But then how do you explain the improved results some have had from re-installing 4.6? Expectation bias maybe?

Only way to tell is to give the customer the option to try one, the other, back, forth, back...  I personally would like to prove myself wrong, but until I get the download links it is truly, all in my head.. which of course, is very beneficial to the support team !

nigelb posted:

Alley Cat makes a good point. I am beginning to wonder if 4.6-gate is in the end down to personal preference. But then how do you explain the improved results some have had from re-installing 4.6? Expectation bias maybe?

Yes, I think we can virtually all agree that 4.6/2.6 (and 2.3.1) updates have altered the sound - while individual users may feel positive or negative about that in the context of their own sound preferences and system, the key thing is that the sound has changed.  Quite clearly Naim has tweaked the sound quality with the genuine intent of a better user experience - unfortunately the reality of these digital systems is that it either doesn't work positively for everyone (perhaps predictable?) or if there is a significant minority of dissenters that there might be more to it than personal preference in causing that negative feeling.

I find it quite fascinating, but as HH mentions in another thread there is the potential for a system someone is perfectly happy with sonically to be inadvertently altered for the worse when addressing ongoing support of digital services and fixing bugs.

Clive B posted:

I heard ‘Yanny’ and I like firmware v4.6 on my NDS. 

I’ll try again later and see if I can convince myself it’s Laurel. If I do, I hope I’ll still like my NDS with v4.6 firmware!

I’ve just tried this again and both my wife and I heard Laurel.

Fortunately the NDS is still sounding jolly fine with v4.6.

Has anyone done a direct comparison between 2 NDS (or ndx/nd5sx)  in the same system, one running 4,4 and the other running 4.6 ?

Claus

Sloop John B posted:

I think a lot of the differences are encapsulated in the saying;

Nowt so queer as folk

It's the same with Roon 1.5, many notice an improvement, many the opposite.

.sjb

Roon has  always sounded the same to me in each update. The same cannot be said for 2,6 on my Atom.

Graham Clarke posted:

Updated my NDS via min-USB using a Win 10 laptop and didn't like the SQ.  Big reduction in bass extension with the mid range being more prominent.  Now, if we could have the mid range changes plus the bass from FW v4.4 that would be ideal! 

However I would be very surprised if the updating device played any part on this.  I would expect the firmware in the NDS to do a checksum of the uploaded data to ensure data integrity before applying it.  Then given that this is 100% in the digital domain where timing, noise, D to A conversions are not relevant (to update process) either the file is correct and can be applied or it can't.

I hear yanny, clearly must be down to the ethernet cable attaching my MusoQB to the network ;-)

Hi Graham, It was good to come over last night and hear your system on 4.4 and 4.6. As we discussed at the end of the evening, there is an audible difference in presentation between the two versions, but whether this is good, bad or just different is the challenging question.

On London Grammar, Hey Now, I think 4.6 better resolved the lowest bass tones, but the mid bass was a little more repressed. This was also a feature on the Led Zeppelin track, where the more repressed mid bass, gave the impression of less bass impact.  (or perhaps this was just a more balanced, controlled bass presentation depending on your perspective?) 4.6 did impact the high vocals on this track and made them sound a little too 'screechy', but as the other version of the same track we listened to was better in this respect, I wonder whether 4.6 just highlighted that the levels had been pushed a bit too high on the first version and had caused some clipping? The Florence and the Machine and Lindsey Stirling tracks sounded fine to me on both 4.4 and 4.6, but I think 4.6 had the edge in terms of resolution and detail at the top.

Overall, my impression of 4.6 was positive, but as we discussed I have had a little more time to adapt to the new sound signature, so how much of this is just down to what we have become accustomed to is an interesting question.

So, no great revelations to inform the mystery, other than that we all hear things a little differently, and what you like is often what you are used to. I hear Yanny...

And thanks to you and Debs for the chips and dips!

Dave.

I continue to be impressed with 4.6 on my NDS and each listen to an album for the first time on 4.6 reveals more than I remember from 4.4. That is, more revealing in a good way.

I read with interest Dave's assessment of Graham's system with 4.4 vs 4.6. Yes, I would agree that 4.6 has changed the balance of bass and high frequencies but I believe the balance is now….err…better balanced with 4.6. I must admit, I have not noticed a repressed mid-bass, just a more extended and more focussed bottom end. The firmware update is more revealing too, with nuances and instruments in the background, which were either very recessed or inaudible with 4.4, but now clearly present on 4.6, which adds more to each track where this is noticed.

You do soon become accustomed to the new balance with 4.6. The only way the superiority of 4.6 is now apparent to me is when I hear a familiar album for the first time using 4.6.

BTW, not sure if it is significant but I am a Yanny man so should be sensitive to the change in the balance of the higher frequencies on 4.6 but I certainly hear no 'screeching'! 

The screeching in question was meant to be there to a certain extent... powerful rock male vocals often have this characteristic, but in this case it was a little too much. I think they had pushed the levels on this particular recording a little too far, and it was clipping. The better high frequency resolution on 4.6 just made this more obvious than on 4.4. Graham will probably chime in with his views. 

Understood Dave. It was good you had an opportunity to compare 4.4 to 4.6 directly using the same system. Interesting stuff.

DaveBk posted:

Graham Clarke posted:

Updated my NDS via min-USB using a Win 10 laptop and didn't like the SQ.  Big reduction in bass extension with the mid range being more prominent.  Now, if we could have the mid range changes plus the bass from FW v4.4 that would be ideal! 

However I would be very surprised if the updating device played any part on this.  I would expect the firmware in the NDS to do a checksum of the uploaded data to ensure data integrity before applying it.  Then given that this is 100% in the digital domain where timing, noise, D to A conversions are not relevant (to update process) either the file is correct and can be applied or it can't.

I hear yanny, clearly must be down to the ethernet cable attaching my MusoQB to the network ;-)

Hi Graham, It was good to come over last night and hear your system on 4.4 and 4.6. As we discussed at the end of the evening, there is an audible difference in presentation between the two versions, but whether this is good, bad or just different is the challenging question.

On London Grammar, Hey Now, I think 4.6 better resolved the lowest bass tones, but the mid bass was a little more repressed. This was also a feature on the Led Zeppelin track, where the more repressed mid bass, gave the impression of less bass impact.  (or perhaps this was just a more balanced, controlled bass presentation depending on your perspective?) 4.6 did impact the high vocals on this track and made them sound a little too 'screechy', but as the other version of the same track we listened to was better in this respect, I wonder whether 4.6 just highlighted that the levels had been pushed a bit too high on the first version and had caused some clipping? The Florence and the Machine and Lindsey Stirling tracks sounded fine to me on both 4.4 and 4.6, but I think 4.6 had the edge in terms of resolution and detail at the top.

Overall, my impression of 4.6 was positive, but as we discussed I have had a little more time to adapt to the new sound signature, so how much of this is just down to what we have become accustomed to is an interesting question.

So, no great revelations to inform the mystery, other than that we all hear things a little differently, and what you like is often what you are used to. I hear Yanny...

And thanks to you and Debs for the chips and dips!

Dave.

Great to see you again Dave.  I've left 4.6 on my NDS and will leave it there for around a month and will then go back to 4.4 to see which I prefer.

However further listening last night made me feel that it sounded somewhat emotionless, so that's not a good start!

Deb and I forced ourselves to finish off the remains of the chips and dips last night

Jonn posted:

NDS using ASUS notebook with Windows 7. Found v4.6 altered the balance (midrange too prominent) and soundstage too wide and diffuse. More detail but less engagement. Back to v4.4 which I find much more engaging and much better balance across frequency range.

 4.4 is much better balanced to my ears also. 

For Nova users, I wonder if ‘max volume’ setting has any impact on this?  Just musing after reading tons of stuff on this issue.  I too have noticed lower mid- bass  volume after the upgrade, but I have powered full range speakers so can just adjust a little up on the bass.  I have not noticed any screechiness, but I’m a “Laurel” anyway awith some hearing damage in mid-higher frequencies.

Hanover33 posted:

For Nova users, I wonder if ‘max volume’ setting has any impact on this?  Just musing after reading tons of stuff on this issue.  I too have noticed lower mid- bass  volume after the upgrade, but I have powered full range speakers so can just adjust a little up on the bass.  I have not noticed any screechiness, but I’m a “Laurel” anyway awith some hearing damage in mid-higher frequencies.

I don't think the max volume setting is the issue in most cases, but it's worth remembering that a factory reset reverts it back to 85/100 so if comparing 2 firmwares probably best to do it at that 85/100 level if you intend to factory reset or at least ensure both are comparable.  The slight issue is that with current Naim app you cannot adjust max volume or balance on older firmware such as 2.3, so if you intend to fiddle with max vol you need to do it on 2.6 and not factory reset between firmware changes (or use old app I suspect with 2.3 if you still had it).

I think Phil Harris posted some time ago that this max vol setting has no effect on sound quality.

The screechy comments I think relate to what I personally found to be a very forward 'in your face' harshness or thin sound to female vocals that previously sounded lovely.  I think I commented that Carol Kidd sounded 20-30 years older on 2.6 for example, and instead of sounding 'in her prime' she sounded almost frail.

I kept max volume the same and 2.6 was still Urghh.. 

Just for the statistics, I went back to 4.4. on my NDS.

I tried really hard with 4.6. (multible installs, factory reset, moving Speakers, tried to get used to it ...) and got to a point that it seems ok for me.

Then it just tried one more time the 4.4. version. It was like a releave. It sounded more right to me and emotion was back in spades.
Naim really has to look into this.

I have upgraded My Atom over the air with the iOS app and downgraded with a Mac. I have also upgraded directly from the Atom and downgraded with the same Mac.

I've also done this so many times with resets and no resets,  always resulting with the upgrade firmware's sound which I found unbearable to listen to for any longer than 15 minutes at a time. Conversely the downgrade firmware's sound resulted in the return to the enjoyable sound I have come to love.

I have also repositioned speakers and also moved the whole setup into a different room with pretty much the same results. The only satisfaction I've had is to return to the 2.3 firmware and wait. I have resigned myself to lack of the supposed multiroom functionality until the 2.6.1 firmware release.

However a word of caution that firmware or any future update may not necessarily be reversible given Phill Harris's comments in another thread. Naim's original response when asked if a downgrade was possible was "NO". It subsequently transpired there was a possibility to downgrade but that wouldn't always be the case.

I just cannot believe irrespective of like or dislike of the firmware sound that people are so nonchalant that Naim knowingly changed the sound without warning and your permission. This is not a cheap piece of kit and in my case was purchased for its reputation, Naim sound and what I liked about it at the audition. 

Little did I know I was buying a system who's sound I specifically choose, could be changed at will by the manufacturer through an firmware update and I may very well not like the results and have no way to revert it back.

When the wider Audiophile community get to hear of this .... the damage to Naim's reputation will be immeasurable. 

Right,I feel exactly the same.

Shame Naim

I'll wait for the next 2.6.1 FW update, if this problem isn't solved I ditch the bitch (Nova)

Odd...I switched several times between 2.3 and 2.6 on my Nova. And although 2.3 has more mojo I find the 2.6 wonderfull balanced. But it takes a long time to get used to the sound.Maybe also some running in time.

Maybe software would benefit from some burn-in time?

(tongue firmly in cheek - commiserations to all who are not happy with the upgrade)

I bought my Uniti2 and Focal 926's as apparently the 926's were voiced to work with the Uniti2 - and very happy I have been with the system until the 4.6 update. I'm now presuming that if they were to voice the 926's again they'd tone down the treble and bring up the midrange to suit the new software voicing.

As it currently is I am unable to turn the system up anymore as the treble just becomes impossible to listen to. As a soundbar it works great with my TV, but then I needn't have spent thousands of pounds to achieve the same effect if I just wanted a soundbar.