Tidal - Update more bass

Yes I had noticed some changes a couple of weeks back - and yes the very low bass seems a little over inflated on some tracks where I am sure it wasn't before - it just supports my view that somehow Tidal is processing the audio in some way and I don't thinks its for the better - as discussed on some other threads

S

Ahaa thanks Simon.

I recall Deezer did something similar when I was using their lossless, but that sounded initially good, but then tiring.

Spotify at the moment is the only stable medium, but I find it quite limp and lifeless.

I think it must be Jay Z and Kanye wanted more bass for their R&B.

I personally don't like it, the bass is very prominent and over exaggerated.

This will further complicate the impending NDS and Uniti firmware updates.

And some of you rely on such source providers, on similar criteria for serious music listening..? On three or four zeros systems?

Not my business, but I am speechless.

Hmm - i am not sure why you are speechless when these specific services are specifically built in to be used in the Naim three or four zero systems... just because you and I don't like the sound of Tidal doesn't mean others won't enjoy it on their significant Naim systems. I suspect if Naim felt it was generally always cr*p they would not have provided these very expensive and complicated integrations........

Massimo Bertola posted:

And some of you rely on such source providers, on similar criteria for serious music listening..? On three or four zeros systems?

Not my business, but I am speechless.

I hear you Massimo. I am regularly entertained and bemused by the degree of nonsense some people hereabouts tolerate to (possibly) enjoy music replay at home.

John.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hmm - i am not sure why you are speechless when these specific services are specifically built in to be used in the Naim three or four zero systems... just because you and I don't like the sound of Tidal doesn't mean others won't enjoy it on their significant Naim systems. I suspect if Naim felt it was generally always cr*p they would not have provided these very expensive and complicated integrations........

Please send me directions to your rose tinted world Simon. It sounds lovely.

Perhaps I'll see you at the ND555 indoctrination session at Signals. I'm bringing my therapist with me; just in case.

John.

J.N. posted:

Massimo Bertola posted:

And some of you rely on such source providers, on similar criteria for serious music listening..? On three or four zeros systems?

Not my business, but I am speechless.

I hear you Massimo. I am regularly entertained and bemused by the degree of nonsense some people hereabouts tolerate to (possibly) enjoy music replay at home.

John.

I listen to quite a lot of nonsense on my system, in fact regularly I can’t tell the difference between it and the nonsense on cd’s. Obviously my hearing is at fault or I’m just one of the plebs that hasent spent enough money yet. 

Wow I forgot to bring my handbag when starting this thread ????

Ah, all you rich dudes with full range speakers! 

Upgrade to a pair of studio monitors like the PMC DB1i and you won't notice if TIDAL turns the bass up, as the bass drivers are the size of squash balls and won''t reproduce them there bass notes anyway

Moving on...

Tidal sounded poor to me, when compared to CD rips on a friend's 272-based system. It doesn't sound like a high-fidelity source, worthy of Naim electronics as far as I'm concerned.

This thread illustrates the old chestnut of unknown provenance with the likes of Tidal. What exactly is one being fed?

John.

Given Naim basically make no reference CD players anymore (or sell any meaningul numbers) and eBay with a steady stream of CD555, I wonder if all them people have gone back to vinyl or streaming ????

Obsydian posted:

Given Naim basically make no reference CD players anymore (or sell any meaningul numbers) and eBay with a steady stream of CD555, I wonder if all them people have gone back to vinyl or streaming ????

I suppose it was inevitable that the convenience of internet-sourced music streaming would prevail, and Naim must follow the money to stay alive.

It surprises me in a way that so many new releases are issued on CD. Vinyl; less so, with its tactile retro-appeal for young people, as well as the seasoned vinyl-head such as myself.

John.

J.N. posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hmm - i am not sure why you are speechless when these specific services are specifically built in to be used in the Naim three or four zero systems... just because you and I don't like the sound of Tidal doesn't mean others won't enjoy it on their significant Naim systems. I suspect if Naim felt it was generally always cr*p they would not have provided these very expensive and complicated integrations........

Please send me directions to your rose tinted world Simon. It sounds lovely.

Perhaps I'll see you at the ND555 indoctrination session at Signals. I'm bringing my therapist with me; just in case.

John.

and also very strange if that were the case that Naim quite recently chose to demonstrate the Statement pre/power amplifiers using an NDS and a catalogue of music largely streamed from Tidal. Perhaps you should ask Naim before you book the ND555 "Indoctrination" (really! - I guess you don't have any pre-conceived prejudices then) session if they intend to use a Tidal stream as part of their demonstration

Perhaps most of those who completely dismiss Tidal as a legitimate source haven't listened to Tidal through an appropriate streamer or DAC, or perhaps they are just blindly (or openly) prejudiced against something with which they don't feel comfortable. I admit to feeling that way about CDs when they were first introduced, and then about the concept of music streaming in general when I first encountered it. I have no doubts about the concept of streaming now. Whether or not CD quality streams from Tidal match the same ripped CDs sourced from a local NAS is a moot point. They may very well not match 'good' hi-res files of the same material. However, in my opinion the statement that "It (Tidal) doesn't sound like a high-fidelity source, worthy of Naim electronics as far as I'm concerned"  is way off the mark.  

Hmack posted:

J.N. posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hmm - i am not sure why you are speechless when these specific services are specifically built in to be used in the Naim three or four zero systems... just because you and I don't like the sound of Tidal doesn't mean others won't enjoy it on their significant Naim systems. I suspect if Naim felt it was generally always cr*p they would not have provided these very expensive and complicated integrations........

Please send me directions to your rose tinted world Simon. It sounds lovely.

Perhaps I'll see you at the ND555 indoctrination session at Signals. I'm bringing my therapist with me; just in case.

John.

and also very strange if that were the case that Naim quite recently chose to demonstrate the Statement pre/power amplifiers using an NDS and a catalogue of music largely streamed from Tidal. Perhaps you should ask Naim before you book the ND555 "Indoctrination" (really! - I guess you don't have any pre-conceived prejudices then) session if they intend to use a Tidal stream as part of their demonstration

Perhaps most of those who completely dismiss Tidal as a legitimate source haven't listened to Tidal through an appropriate streamer or DAC, or perhaps they are just blindly (or openly) prejudiced against something with which they don't feel comfortable. I admit to feeling that way about CDs when they were first introduced, and then about the concept of music streaming in general when I first encountered it. I have no doubts about the concept of streaming now. Whether or not CD quality streams from Tidal match the same ripped CDs sourced from a local NAS is a moot point. They may very well not match 'good' hi-res files of the same material. However, in my opinion the statement that "It (Tidal) doesn't sound like a high-fidelity source, worthy of Naim electronics as far as I'm concerned"  is way off the mark.  

 

Indoctrination" (really! - I guess you don't have any pre-conceived prejudices then)

Hopefully, those who know me better would have realised that comment was tongue in cheek. I'm looking forward to hearing the Naim ND555 and if (as a CD copying machine), it sounds better than the CD555; which is apparently one of Naim's aims; great stuff.

The unknown provenance and internet transmission of music data files on Tidal renders it an unacceptable high fidelity source for me, but it's certainly convenient. It is not blind prejudice - ripped CD's sound better to me (as I stated in an earlier post). Naim have to follow the money and market trends; thought it was not always the case - but that's a whole other can of worms.

Who said the forum was boring? Good to get some lively debate going.

John.

Not noticed any extra bass or change in Tidal SQ through Roon. 

Yeah its strange, it seems to be the be very low bass, I have tried again recently, it can be be off putting, but its only on certain albums... oh well, I have switched to Qobuz now  where I don’t need to worry with this any of this stuff... it’s equivalent to heme network streaming when using a proxy... everything else all gets a bit tiring.. I just like to enjoy my music and not have to  worry about where  the source is... and of course with a local home network proxy as long as there is no source media  processing.. the streaming is identical whether it be local stripped CD or remotely sourced media, necause it is the same... I am glad I have that sorted now and the voodoo is dispelled.

when you have a had a stressful week of network and application  engineering challenges with customers, the last thing you want is silly shenanigans at home with your Naim enjoying what the wonderful music your 552 gives you.

J.N. posted:

Hmack posted:

J.N. posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hmm - i am not sure why you are speechless when these specific services are specifically built in to be used in the Naim three or four zero systems... just because you and I don't like the sound of Tidal doesn't mean others won't enjoy it on their significant Naim systems. I suspect if Naim felt it was generally always cr*p they would not have provided these very expensive and complicated integrations........

Please send me directions to your rose tinted world Simon. It sounds lovely.

Perhaps I'll see you at the ND555 indoctrination session at Signals. I'm bringing my therapist with me; just in case.

John.

and also very strange if that were the case that Naim quite recently chose to demonstrate the Statement pre/power amplifiers using an NDS and a catalogue of music largely streamed from Tidal. Perhaps you should ask Naim before you book the ND555 "Indoctrination" (really! - I guess you don't have any pre-conceived prejudices then) session if they intend to use a Tidal stream as part of their demonstration

Perhaps most of those who completely dismiss Tidal as a legitimate source haven't listened to Tidal through an appropriate streamer or DAC, or perhaps they are just blindly (or openly) prejudiced against something with which they don't feel comfortable. I admit to feeling that way about CDs when they were first introduced, and then about the concept of music streaming in general when I first encountered it. I have no doubts about the concept of streaming now. Whether or not CD quality streams from Tidal match the same ripped CDs sourced from a local NAS is a moot point. They may very well not match 'good' hi-res files of the same material. However, in my opinion the statement that "It (Tidal) doesn't sound like a high-fidelity source, worthy of Naim electronics as far as I'm concerned"  is way off the mark.  

 

Indoctrination" (really! - I guess you don't have any pre-conceived prejudices then) 

 Hopefully, those who know me better would have realised that comment was tongue in cheek. I'm looking forward to hearing the Naim ND555 and if (as a CD copying machine), it sounds better than the CD555; which is apparently one of Naim's aims; great stuff.

The unknown provenance and internet transmission of music data files on Tidal renders it an unacceptable high fidelity source for me, but it's certainly convenient. It is not blind prejudice - ripped CD's sound better to me (as I stated in an earlier post). Naim have to follow the money and market trends; thought it was not always the case - but that's a whole other can of worms.

Who said the forum was boring? Good to get some lively debate going.

John.

 

Sorry John.

Looks like I mislaid my 'sense of humour' chip. Hopefully I'll find it again over the weekend.

Hope you enjoy the ND555, although it might cost you quite a bit of money if you do. Who knows? Even Tidal might sound quite good on the ND555.

As I and many others have said before Tidal is an excellent way of finding and previewing new music before you buy it on either CD or record and also ok for low background music but as a main source if you are serious about music replay it isn't up to the task at all.

Perhaps Naim should produce and release it's own streaming service at least for it's own releases and radio station.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Yeah its strange, it seems to be the be very low bass, I have tried again recently, it can be be off putting, but its only on certain albums... oh well, I have switched to Qobuz now  where I don’t need to worry with this any of this stuff... it’s equivalent to heme network streaming when using a proxy... everything else all gets a bit tiring.. I just like to enjoy my music and not have to  worry about where  the source is... and of course with a local home network proxy as long as there is no source media  processing.. the streaming is identical whether it be local stripped CD or remotely sourced media, necause it is the same... I am glad I have that sorted now and the voodoo is dispelled.

when you have a had a stressful week of network and application  engineering challenges with customers, the last thing you want is silly shenanigans at home with your Naim enjoying what the wonderful music your 552 gives you.

 

 

Simon, home network streaming?, intrigued can you elloborate is that for Tidal also?

Advantage if Android is I can download and install prior versions of the apk, plan to install 2.3.1 Tidal and see if it was the app change leading to the heavy bass.

Hi, yes there was a thread on it here recently... essentially I run BubbleUPnP Server on the same mini server (RaspberryPi) as I run one of my main UPnP Media Servers (MinimServer). This acts as a UPnP proxy/session border controller, and provides that all important protocol break between internet streaming from Qobuz and Tidal and local UPnP media streaming.... essentially it turns internet streaming into a UPnP compatible media stream and pushes the media to the Naim streamer. As far as your Naim streamer is concerned it’s playing local UPnP pushed media, and the Naim app shows the media being played with meta data and album art. You need to use an alternate control point such as LUMIN on your iOS or Android dervice to then control Qobuz and Tidal being sent to the Naim streamer.

If you think of it as a protocol converter  like you have media codec transcoders from FLAC to WAV... although in this case unless you want transcoding, the media payload is left alone.

Search Tidal on Wikipedia. It's an interesting read, if you are concerned by anything else beyond your own personal convenience. I am speaking to no-one in particular. For sure, my view about how one can use it, even partly, as a source of serious listening hasn't changed much. Now, though, I know it's also the source of a fraud for millions in royalties in favor of the owner's wife, beyond the deplorable boost of bass in some of the owner's and owner's wife's mixes...

that makes it easier for me to buy a Naim uniticore, I was wondering what to do without Tidal - but then.... 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hi, yes there was a thread on it here recently... essentially I run BubbleUPnP Server on the same mini server (RaspberryPi) as I run one of my main UPnP Media Servers (MinimServer). This acts as a UPnP proxy/session border controller, and provides that all important protocol break between internet streaming from Qobuz and Tidal and local UPnP media streaming.... essentially it turns internet streaming into a UPnP compatible media stream and pushes the media to the Naim streamer. As far as your Naim streamer is concerned it’s playing local UPnP pushed media, and the Naim app shows the media being played with meta data and album art. You need to use an alternate control point such as LUMIN on your iOS or Android dervice to then control Qobuz and Tidal being sent to the Naim streamer.

If you think of it as a protocol converter  like you have media codec transcoders from FLAC to WAV... although in this case unless you want transcoding, the media payload is left alone.

Hi Simon

I’m using Bubble on my Qnap to play Qobuz and it’s sounding very nice indeed. Is this effectively the same as what you are doing on the Pi?

Thanks

[@mention:1566878604014936] was the change in SQ presentation of the Tidal stream with playback from the Tidal Desktop app, the iOS App or the integration with the Naim app?

The integrations with the likes of the Naim App and in Roon, just access the files directly from the Tidal database. In fact in the Roon logs you can see the Curl requests to obtain the file information and to initiate the streaming as a FLAC file. It is then the playback mechanisms available to these integrations to play the track on the hardware they represent.

So unless the tracks are remastered at source to change the EQ, changes should not be heard.

Obviously the Tidal apps integrate directly to the device hardware & the soundcard, mechanism so the EQ could of been changed as part of an App update there.

Massimo Bertola posted:

Search Tidal on Wikipedia. It's an interesting read, if you are concerned by anything else beyond your own personal convenience. I am speaking to no-one in particular. For sure, my view about how one can use it, even partly, as a source of serious listening hasn't changed much. Now, though, I know it's also the source of a fraud for millions in royalties in favor of the owner's wife, beyond the deplorable boost of bass in some of the owner's and owner's wife's mixes...

Tidal responded: “This is a smear campaign from a publication that once referred to our employee as an ‘Israeli Intelligence officer’ and our owner as a ‘crack dealer.’ We expect nothing less from them than this ridiculous story, lies and falsehoods. The information was stolen and manipulated and we will fight these claims vigorously.”

Hard to know the real truth…