Tidal - Update more bass

simes_pep posted:

[@mention:1566878604014936] was the change in SQ presentation of the Tidal stream with playback from the Tidal Desktop app, the iOS App or the integration with the Naim app?

The integrations with the likes of the Naim App and in Roon, just access the files directly from the Tidal database. In fact in the Roon logs you can see the Curl requests to obtain the file information and to initiate the streaming as a FLAC file. It is then the playback mechanisms available to these integrations to play the track on the hardware they represent.

So unless the tracks are remastered at source to change the EQ, changes should not be heard.

Obviously the Tidal apps integrate directly to the device hardware & the soundcard, mechanism so the EQ could of been changed as part of an App update there.

Through the Naim app Android, but the same using Android Auto, all after the recent Tidal app software change.

Realised my iPad has not upgraded Tidal, so will listen to that later and then upgrade.

Just been on a long drive and via Android Auto, bass is more dominant now and vocals, all seems a bit artificial.

Hungryhalibut posted:

I’m using Bubble on my Qnap to play Qobuz and it’s sounding very nice indeed. Is this effectively the same as what you are doing on the Pi?

Hi Nigel, yes it sounds like it... if it starts raining outside one tweak to try is to try running the BubbleUPnP Server on different platforms on your home network - you might be surprised to find that it sounds subtly different - or not of course. But if you do hear a difference then this might be due to the inter frame timing effect I have described elsewhere on this forum.... Tweaks-R-Us™ ... you can chose a platform to match preference  

 

Sorry John.

Looks like I mislaid my 'sense of humour' chip. Hopefully I'll find it again over the weekend.

Hope you enjoy the ND555, although it might cost you quite a bit of money if you do. Who knows? Even Tidal might sound quite good on the ND555.

No Problem. It's good that we are passionate about our music and chosen way of enjoying it.

I've been impressed by the Melco/Chord Dave DAC option, and would be very interested to hear that compared to the ND555 in due course.

Good listening.

John.

In terms of using Tidal or Qobuz for serious listening on our expensive systems people should check out the long thread on the main forum.  Seems like there are significant numbers of people listening to low bitrate mp3 internet radio streams on many a 552/500 system for the better part of the day.  It was an interesting statistic to see compared to the amount of cd and vinyl playback on these same expensive systems.

glevethan posted:

In terms of using Tidal or Qobuz for serious listening on our expensive systems people should check out the long thread on the main forum.  Seems like there are significant numbers of people listening to low bitrate mp3 internet radio streams on many a 552/500 system for the better part of the day.  It was an interesting statistic to see compared to the amount of cd and vinyl playback on these same expensive systems.

I would suspect much of the iRadio 320kpbs stations listened to during the day are for casual background music and if you enjoy radio but have a 552/500 system I'm afraid that is as good as it gets.

glevethan posted:

In terms of using Tidal or Qobuz for serious listening on our expensive systems people should check out the long thread on the main forum.  Seems like there are significant numbers of people listening to low bitrate mp3 internet radio streams on many a 552/500 system for the better part of the day.  It was an interesting statistic to see compared to the amount of cd and vinyl playback on these same expensive systems.

I don’t understand this post.. or is it me.. what has 320kbps AAC lossy streams got to do with lossless FLAC streaming from NAS/Tidal/Qobuz etc....

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

glevethan posted:

In terms of using Tidal or Qobuz for serious listening on our expensive systems people should check out the long thread on the main forum.  Seems like there are significant numbers of people listening to low bitrate mp3 internet radio streams on many a 552/500 system for the better part of the day.  It was an interesting statistic to see compared to the amount of cd and vinyl playback on these same expensive systems.

I don’t understand this post.. or is it me.. what has 320kbps AAC lossy streams got to do with lossless FLAC streaming from NAS/Tidal/Qobuz etc....

It was part of the "lively debate" in reply to John not understanding how people can listen to Tidal on their systems.  I found it interesting how many people listen to sources considerably inferior (320kbps or less) to Tidal and Qobuz on their systems.

glevethan posted:

In terms of using Tidal or Qobuz for serious listening on our expensive systems people should check out the long thread on the main forum.  Seems like there are significant numbers of people listening to low bitrate mp3 internet radio streams on many a 552/500 system for the better part of the day.  It was an interesting statistic to see compared to the amount of cd and vinyl playback on these same expensive systems.

I think I understand where you're coming from,  but don't see what point you're making.        To me its seems very much as I would expect,  listening is background music during the domestic workday,  FM radio, lossless & lossy web streams & iRadio etc.   That for my listening is the majority of system on time,  split between FM radio & the higher bit rate AAC & MP3 iRadio    My serious listening is only NAS.     I suspect that might be typical of most hifi/audio listeners, irrespective of system make model cost or complexity. 

Tidal is mandatory for me, there's just too many albums which I don't want particularly to buy, but sure worth listening to once at least.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hi, yes there was a thread on it here recently... essentially I run BubbleUPnP Server on the same mini server (RaspberryPi) as I run one of my main UPnP Media Servers (MinimServer). This acts as a UPnP proxy/session border controller, and provides that all important protocol break between internet streaming from Qobuz and Tidal and local UPnP media streaming.... essentially it turns internet streaming into a UPnP compatible media stream and pushes the media to the Naim streamer. As far as your Naim streamer is concerned it’s playing local UPnP pushed media, and the Naim app shows the media being played with meta data and album art. You need to use an alternate control point such as LUMIN on your iOS or Android dervice to then control Qobuz and Tidal being sent to the Naim streamer.

If you think of it as a protocol converter  like you have media codec transcoders from FLAC to WAV... although in this case unless you want transcoding, the media payload is left alone.

@SIMON-IN-SUFFOLK, Hi Simon, I am intrigued by your Qobuz streaming arrangement and I wanted to try Qobuz streamed to my NDS the same way you have set it up. I have installed BubbleUPnP Server on my QNAP NAS where I also have Asset (which is what I normally listen to locally stored music through) and the QNAP server software. I have initiated proxys of both Asset and QNAP servers on this NAS. I have also downloaded the LUMIN control app on my iPad and have started the 1 month free trial with Qobuz HiFi streaming.

I can stream Quobuz to my iPad using the Qobuz app.

When I open the LUMIN app I can select any of 5 server software icons: Asset UPnP and Asset UPnP (Proxy), QNAP MusicNAS and QNAP MusicNAS (Proxy) and finally the UnitiServe. The library appears in LUMIN when I select any of the 5 UPnP packages but when I try to play anything via LUMIN it comes up with an error message 'Error Please select a LUMIN'. I did initially see icons for both Tidal and Qobuz in the LUMIN app but they disappeared when I selected one on the UPnP server software packages and I can't deselect, only choose another of the 5.

I assume I need somehow to link the Bubble UPnP server to the LUMIN app which I thought I was doing via the proxy of Asset or QNAP UPnP servers. Any idea what I am doing wrong here? Again, what I am aiming for is to listen to Qobuz (without any or limited digital interference) through my NDS.

Try Linn Kazoo, it’s easier than Lumin. Log into Qobuz and you are away. 

Hi Nigel, great to meet you the other week by the way. I have downloaded the Linn Kazoo control app and when I open it all I see is a message saying 'Waiting for room.....' and the spinning spokes of a wheel and it never finds the room it is waiting for.

I know I am needing to do something simple to get Qobuz on my NDS, just can't seem to fathom it out.

Hi NigelB... ok you need to run the proxy software BubbleUPnP Server. You can run this on any small computer on your home network. So it could be your NAS, MAC, PC, unix media server etc... I run mine on my little Unix media server, a RaspberryPi. I am intrigued by your feedback of running LUMIN with BubbleUPnP media server running on your NAS... are you sure it’s running correctly? (What does the BubbleUPnP Server web  control page say on <NAS ip address>:58050 ). Try running on a mac or Windows pc initially and go from there.. remember to switch off the NAS instance of the bubble software  first 

Once this is running, it will discover your other UPnP media servers, but if you are just using this to play on your home network and not remotely, this is of no additional benefit. The key thing is that will allow you to connect to Tidal and Qobuz, and then using its proxy function casts these services as local UPnP media plays to your streamer controlled by LUMIN or Kazoo etc. HH prefers Kazoo, I prefer LUMIN as it is more functional and not Linn specific but both are suitable.

So yes get BubbleUPnP Server running... follow the instructions... it should discover your NDS and you are away.

[@mention:1566878603876589] - Have you got transcoding to work on your Pi?

I'm using on a QNAP and have installed ffmpeg but transcoding doesn't seem to work, i.e. the Naim streamer still sees FLAC.

Hi Richard, no I have not used transcoding... as I use an off board DAC on my Naim streamer I have found the difference now between FLAC and WAV almost indistinguishable thankfully on playback.. and now I would not say one definitely sounds better than the other, even with hidef... 

Out of curiosity I did compile and link a suitable version  of ffmpeg... but I lost the will to live to do the same for the MP3 encoder Lame which is a link dependency... but if you do that transcoding should work, but I haven’t tried it.

Nigel B - sorry, I imagined you’d already installed Bubble. Once installed, if you fire up Kazoo it should just work. I have tried Lumin but couldn’t fathom out how to get it going. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

Nigel B - sorry, I imagined you’d already installed Bubble. Once installed, if you fire up Kazoo it should just work. I have tried Lumin but couldn’t fathom out how to get it going. 

I have indeed installed BubbleUPnP Server on my QNAP NAS and Kazoo on my iPad. I think Bubble must be set up incorrectly

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hi NigelB... ok you need to run the proxy software BubbleUPnP Server. You can run this on any small computer on your home network. So it could be your NAS, MAC, PC, unix media server etc... I run mine on my little Unix media server, a RaspberryPi. I am intrigued by your feedback of running LUMIN with BubbleUPnP media server running on your NAS... are you sure it’s running correctly? (What does the BubbleUPnP Server web  control page say on <NAS ip address>:58050 ). Try running on a mac or Windows pc initially and go from there.. remember to switch off the NAS instance of the bubble software  first 

Once this is running, it will discover your other UPnP media servers, but if you are just using this to play on your home network and not remotely, this is of no additional benefit. The key thing is that will allow you to connect to Tidal and Qobuz, and then using its proxy function casts these services as local UPnP media plays to your streamer controlled by LUMIN or Kazoo etc. HH prefers Kazoo, I prefer LUMIN as it is more functional and not Linn specific but both are suitable.

So yes get BubbleUPnP Server running... follow the instructions... it should discover your NDS and you are away.

Hi Simon, it was good to meet you too the other week.

To avoid the continuation of this diversion, I wondered if I could e-mail you some screenshots of windows from the BubbleUPnP Server software I have installed on my QNAP as I think it is just a setting that is causing me problems?

In bubble, you must enable each Naim box as an open home renderer, or something like that. Have a look. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

In bubble, you must enable each Naim box as an open home renderer, or something like that. Have a look. 

Hi Nigel, I have just gone into Bubble and created my NDS and Qb as OpenHome renderers as you suggested and hey presto, can see and stream both Qobuz and Tidal via Bubble. The only thing Bubble doesn't give you of course is volume control but there is always the remote control for that.

I suspected it was something like a setting such as this but I am still learning about all things networky and compootery.

Many thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

nigelb posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hi NigelB... ok you need to run the proxy software BubbleUPnP Server. You can run this on any small computer on your home network. So it could be your NAS, MAC, PC, unix media server etc... I run mine on my little Unix media server, a RaspberryPi. I am intrigued by your feedback of running LUMIN with BubbleUPnP media server running on your NAS... are you sure it’s running correctly? (What does the BubbleUPnP Server web  control page say on <NAS ip address>:58050 ). Try running on a mac or Windows pc initially and go from there.. remember to switch off the NAS instance of the bubble software  first 

Once this is running, it will discover your other UPnP media servers, but if you are just using this to play on your home network and not remotely, this is of no additional benefit. The key thing is that will allow you to connect to Tidal and Qobuz, and then using its proxy function casts these services as local UPnP media plays to your streamer controlled by LUMIN or Kazoo etc. HH prefers Kazoo, I prefer LUMIN as it is more functional and not Linn specific but both are suitable.

So yes get BubbleUPnP Server running... follow the instructions... it should discover your NDS and you are away.

Hi Simon, it was good to meet you too the other week.

To avoid the continuation of this diversion, I wondered if I could e-mail you some screenshots of windows from the BubbleUPnP Server software I have installed on my QNAP as I think it is just a setting that is causing me problems?

Simon, as you can probably see, HH has sorted my problem, but thanks for your responses and apologies to the OP for the diversion.

When you are running Qobuz in Kazoo, it will control the volume on the Naim. It will on my 272 and Qb anyway. You can then see what’s playing on the Naim app as usual, but while the now playing screen is ok, the other one with the track list will show the right picture, but the track listing for the album you last played via upnp using the Naim app. The main thing is that it is working for you, which is great. I was listening to Qobuz all morning today and was really impressed with the sound quality. 

Sadly the Kazoo volume control doesn’t work with ye ancient and venerable olde streamers, so I scoot between apps for that kind of stuff. A pain, but not so much.

NigelB, glad HH sorted you out... enjoy

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

I’m using Bubble on my Qnap to play Qobuz and it’s sounding very nice indeed. Is this effectively the same as what you are doing on the Pi?

Hi Nigel, yes it sounds like it... if it starts raining outside one tweak to try is to try running the BubbleUPnP Server on different platforms on your home network - you might be surprised to find that it sounds subtly different - or not of course. But if you do hear a difference then this might be due to the inter frame timing effect I have described elsewhere on this forum.... Tweaks-R-Us™ ... you can chose a platform to match preference  

@Simon-in-Suffolk, I believe I have now replicated your set-up having installed BubbleUPnP server alongside Asset server on my QNAP and have Qobuz HiFi on a months trial, retaining Tidal for the time being and using LUMIN (and Kazoo) control app.

I assume that the Asset proxy version of the server software is in fact Bubble borrowing the Asset UI. Anyway, using the Asset proxy I am sure I have noticed a very decent uplift in SQ for not only external Qobuz (and Tidal) streaming but also local streaming from the QNAP. Greater separation and definition of instruments and vocals, put simply greater clarity and texture.

Assuming my mind is not playing tricks on me, as the server software is the only change I have made, is the explanation as you suggested before that I am now effectively streaming Qobuz (and Tidal) locally, avoiding some level of external processing? If this is a possible explanation for the improvement in external streaming, then why am I also hearing an improvement in local streaming from the QNAP? Is BubbleUPNP server software simply superior or is there another explanation?

Whatever is going on, I am grateful to you for bringing this free tweak to my attention.