When is 'Good' Good Enough?

Very nice.  Always enjoy reading about these kind of get-togethers.  And done with courtesy and respect, which is a reflection of each of you.  Jeff A

Always a pleasure to see you, Mr Underhill.  So nice to chat about systems, how we got to where we are today, and different music.  

One of the benefits of having this hobby for so long is the development of a discerning ear. It’s always tempting to use that to critique the ‘hi-fi’ characteristics of a system. Don’t we all do this when attending shows and in-store demos? That skill can be helpful e.g. when a friend seeks a second opinion to confirm and/or challenge what they are hearing in trying to track-down something that niggles them.  But it can all too easily get in way of enjoyment and lead to chasing the end of a rainbow that you will never reach. Ultimately what really matters is whether a system ‘pleases’ in the sense that it allows you to enjoy music.  That for me is a pretty useful test in trying to answer your question of when is good good enough.       

I would agree with Jeff that it is always a pleasure to read about new friendships that have been cultivated through a common interest. 

That’s a very nice report, Mr Underhill. I have visited Richard (Tricky Dickie) a couple of times and really enjoy listening to his system, which is an NDX with 282 and 250DR. The real difference is his speakers, which are Kudos S20s, and that his room is a bit larger. I have pondered on whether it is ‘better’ and have concluded that it’s simply different. Like you and your visit to Mike, we tend to analyse the hifi very little, and just listen to music and chat about things in general. I’ve discovered some really good music thanks to Richard, which is the point of it all anyway. 

Mr Underhill, you pose a very good question.

I will admit to bouts of upgraditis, unsure of what it is I want to improve. This affliction is perpetuated as a result of the uplift in SQ from the addition/substitution of new (or preloved in my case) boxes/cables/tweaks. It is a pretty unscientific affair, but I am now enjoying a superb level of SQ which facilitates a greater enjoyment of music. In fact many albums I own I have heard hundreds of times but somehow upgrading kit just brings more and overplayed albums become somehow rejuvenated.

But it has to stop somewhere, hence your question I assume.

Recently I installed Bubble UPnP Server software which is free. I also have Asset UPnP server software and Bubble creates a proxy of this on my QNAP NAS. I have also subscribed to a free month trial of full fat Qobuz. This evening I listened to a mixture of Qobuz and locally streamed rips and hi res downloads from my NAS via the new proxy UPnP server software. I am not entirely sure what has changed but listening to music this evening was a stunning experience. For the very fist time I though to myself that I simply do not need more, even though I previously had convinced myself I need new speakers. What more could I need? I was hearing the separation of instruments and vocals I have been striving for but everything just gelled together. Yes, individual strands, but all beautifully playing together in wonderful harmony. That is the only way i can describe it.

I guess only the individual listener can answer your question for him or herself.

Mr Underhill posted:

 

 

There is no doubt in my mind that MDS's Naim system is more highly resolving, but that can go both ways; MDS introduced me to ‘We are the Fallen’, their one album is on Qobuz I am glad to say, I thought was superb on the Naim system, but I remember listening to the first track and some strings enter on the right of the soundfield; it was starkly obvious that these were added on, not part of the same acoustic but tacked on in post production. This didn’t stop my enjoyment but did move me from music mode into analytical. This is all handled subtly differently through my system, the recording process isn’t so starkly laid bare, and so when the strings arrived I could just continue in music mode. Which is better?

Interesting question Mr U.

For me, if the producer did it that way, then I want to hear it. He clearly thought most listeners wouldn’t hear the stitch, but also, even if they did, it would sound just as acceptable as it did to him in the studio. In my experience, within reason,  If a system reveals this info then it will also reveal every crucial to the overall experience aspect of other recordings. It will capture air, atmosphere, feeling etc. that will be smoothed over by a ‘nicer’ system. I absolutely see the appeal of valves. It’s also a beautiful sound and has unique characteristics that can make any transistor alternative sound distractingly crude by comparison. I completely understand why your ears prefer your system. Presumably, that’s how you came to select it so carefully from the the many options available to you. i know my system would sound very bright and edgy for some, if not most ears, but I’m happy to take the warts if it brings me the all. 

What a really well worded post, Mr U. I get what you mean about both systems and have experienced something similar myself. I too feel like there can be a tipping point where artifice in production is so laid bare by great gear that it can distract me from the music or make music that used to sound whole now sound like a disjointed pastiche. It reminds me of when I first got high def TV. I was watching a TV series that I was already following before I got high def and when viewing it in high def, all I kept fixating on was that I could tell the brick walls behind the actors were painted on plywood and that the lead actors were more wrinkled than I thought. Ultimately though, I got used to it and found myself focusing on detail only when I wanted to. Then the bad was tuned out and the good became great.

Nice to hear about a couple of Focal lovers getting together for an enjoyable day.

I find it is easier to be happy with lesser systems. Something about the pleasure to cost ratio is very favourable. That satisfaction gained from a good pairing of lower cost source, amp, and speakers is hard to beat.

As you get up to loftier heights, the same things that make a system sensitive enough to bring out those magic micro details also make systems hyper sensitive to placement, mains power, cabling etc. So the amount of energy you need to put into getting a more expensive system to sound great can be an issue.

So when is good, good enough? I don't have an answer but I suspect is the level at which your music buying/listening habits are as broad as they will ever get. If you make an upgrade and it doesn't broaden your musical tastes, then you've probably done one upgrade more than you need to be happy.

Years passed, we had an active little Naim listening group in the Seattle area. These sessions were wonderful for camaraderie and helped me gain perspective on my own system's sound. I typically listened to gear at a higher level than mine. Sometimes purely streamed, other times with a mix of vinyl. Whether or not I wholly loved all aspects of my friends' systems, I could always appreciate why they were happy with their chosen path. Certain facets not for my ears, but I certainly couldn't criticize. The value was a sense of direction in where I'd want my own system to evolve.

I took home several things: 1) the sound of streaming (versus my physical media replay) is not for me, 2) there is a point at which highly resolving sources become overexposing to my ears (I guess I prefer the warmer side of recorded music), 3) returns on money spent climbing the ladder rapidly diminish and I should stay content to aspire within my means.

So to my friends that invited me into their homes to listen I'd say "many thanks"! Your generosity and the sound of your systems remains positively embedded in my memory banks. All beneficial in helping me hone a system that I'm currently quite content with.

The answer to this question to my mind is  simply when you cease to get the urges to tinker and ‘upgrade’.. sure you still have curiosity of what new equipment sounds and functions like, but the urge to change what you have  disappears... and you simply enjoy listening to the replay on your system

Sometimes it 'just has to be good enough' when your fingers reach the bottom of your penny pot!

Huge posted:

Sometimes it 'just has to be good enough' when your fingers reach the bottom of your penny pot!

How very true ...

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

The answer to this question to my mind is  simply when you cease to get the urges to tinker and ‘upgrade’.. sure you still have curiosity of what new equipment sounds and functions like, but the urge to change what you have  disappears... and you simply enjoy listening to the replay on your system

Yes, Simon. Curiosity, rather than dissatisfaction, can lead to 'upgrades'. And of course we are by nature curious creatures.

M  

If this was the Mumsnet forum, we'd all be wondering wether to have another baby.

Dear All,

Thank you for the kind words.

Huge posted:

Sometimes it 'just has to be good enough' when your fingers reach the bottom of your penny pot!

Very true. Funnily enough I am in the opposite position, I have a pot and can't really justify spending it. This is where I need to be honest with myself. If asked historically I would say something akin to, 'It is the music I am interested in, the HiFi is just a by product'. But, is that the truth? Certainly I think it is not the whole truth. Laying aside the lucre, deciding on a possible path, listening to alternatives and finally making a purchase all carry with them a frisson of excitement; and then, as NigelB says above, you re-visit old friends and hopefully discover new insights.

In my case there is one bigger bit of kit that I know would get me reaching for my cheque book, but other than that I will try and sit on my funds.

M

Curiosity killed the cat, or in our case, drained the wallet. No matter how wonderful we think our systems sound, there'll always be something trembling in the wings, waiting to dart out and clobber us with further improvements. We know what it is, we think about it often, and eventually, with a cruel inevitability, we succumb. Trouble is, the fix only lasts as long as it takes to revisit all those favourite albums, plus a few visits to hi-fi forums, shows, your friendly dealers...

I've now learned to avoid borrowing stuff to try in my system. Most of the time.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

 .. sure you still have curiosity of what new equipment sounds and functions like

By and large, not here.

C.

Mr Underhill posted:

(...)

There is no doubt in my mind that MDS's Naim system is more highly resolving, but that can go both ways; MDS introduced me to ‘We are the Fallen’, their one album is on Qobuz I am glad to say, I thought was superb on the Naim system, but I remember listening to the first track and some strings enter on the right of the soundfield; it was starkly obvious that these were added on, not part of the same acoustic but tacked on in post production. This didn’t stop my enjoyment but did move me from music mode into analytical. This is all handled subtly differently through my system, the recording process isn’t so starkly laid bare, and so when the strings arrived I could just continue in music mode. Which is better?

(...)

M

Mr U.,

I quoted this fragment of your post because I find it extremely interesting, clearly exposed and open to make any of us reflect on important priorities (if they so like).

First, you have introduced a couple of terms that could become steady part of our discussions: music mode, analytical mode. I understand this much better than you can imagine. Until I was in my early teens, I lived music both ways; I remember that my sister (scarcely musical, but totally in music mode) often 'accused' me of being 'too analytical'. At twelve! Then, thanks mainly to the decade from The Beatles' first LPs to the slow move from progressive to post-pop, pre-punk, I was able to live much more, almost always in music mode. Playing in a band, writing songs helped.

From mid-70s on, thanks to my first serious stereo, I slowly moved to analytical mode: it's in my nature, I can't help it. Studying at the Music Conservatory and getting a Diploma in Composition didn't help: strangely, isn't it? When you are trained to control structures and only marginally encouraged to cultivate instinct, that's what happens. From then on, I have lived in analytical mode for the 90% of time. To be able to enjoy music emotionally, to be 'in the flow', I need to stop my strong relation between physical health and attentive mind: being ill, wounded, psychologically frail. Which does not happen frequently.

Did owing Naim help? Yes and no. And this is – or so it seems to me – the underlining doubt you pose yourself. Naim people seem to belong for the largest part to music mode listeners. I doubt this, and have expressed my humble opinion a number of times: Naim's main features are two: a strong tie with music's drive, and a certain edge to the sound that helps clarity, realism and encourages to search (consciously or not) for a glorious rendition of details. I believe that this is true for almost all Naim owners, safe for a few sincere music 'moders' (I know at least one), and some who buy Naim because it's objectively well built, idiomatically sounding, ultra reliable and cleverly fashionable.

So, your post made me think – and it seems it made you think, too. Does Naim always put you 'in the flow'? Do other brands and systems draw you into the music without that drive and lucidity?

Last: I have tried, three or four times, to leave Naim for good because of that edge, because I thought I was wanting a more smooth, flowing musical sound in the home. Then there I was, again with Naim. I have settled for a simple setup (plus a number of ghost PSUs) which allows me a good balance between music mode and my biologic need for detail.

My only answer to your, and my, question, is to quote Socrates about wives: I can't live with it, I can't live without it. A music system like Naim's is not made to make you happy, but to make you nervous; but as someone said, if it weren't for nervous people, humanity would still be living in stilt houses.

Best

M.

Just great when guys sit down together and just get beyond the system and into the music.  I’ll always recall the day I went to purchase my CDS3 from the late great Frank Abela at Audio-T and after the initial “yeah that sounds bloody good” evaluation we just spent the whole afternoon listening to great music.  

The grass is always greener on the other side.

Mr Underhill posted:

Dear All,

Thank you for the kind words.

Huge posted:

Sometimes it 'just has to be good enough' when your fingers reach the bottom of your penny pot!

Very true. Funnily enough I am in the opposite position, I have a pot and can't really justify spending it. This is where I need to be honest with myself. If asked historically I would say something akin to, 'It is the music I am interested in, the HiFi is just a by product'. But, is that the truth? Certainly I think it is not the whole truth. Laying aside the lucre, deciding on a possible path, listening to alternatives and finally making a purchase all carry with them a frisson of excitement; and then, as NigelB says above, you re-visit old friends and hopefully discover new insights.

In my case there is one bigger bit of kit that I know would get me reaching for my cheque book, but other than that I will try and sit on my funds.

M

Hi M,

I am in the same position and feel the same way. I will spend only what I feel is reasonable, somewhere around the $5K limit per component, new or used (minuscule by the standards here).

Is it for the music? In my case no, not really- my nice table top could do for that. HiFi is for the FUN!!

B.

I enjoy my socialising with 'the similarly afflicted' as I like to call them. A friend and fellow Naimee was here on Monday and we enjoyed many a good tune from his and my music collection.

I find it really useful and interesting to visit different systems, rooms and music collections. It seems that we each have a individual ear (not to mention listening space), so are all seeking something a bit different.

As long as one can come home and enjoy one's own system again - job done. Vive la différence.

Expenditure/cost? When/where to stop? A rule which seems to apply from reading many a forum post is .......... 

If one can afford it; it's good value/an investment. If one cannot afford it; it's daft/OTT/overpriced.

For some reason, I want a daft/OTT/overpriced set of Statement amps.

Good listening y'all.

John.

Massimo Bertola posted:

Mr Underhill posted:

(...)

Mr U.,

........ Studying at the Music Conservatory and getting a Diploma in Composition didn't help: strangely, isn't it? When you are trained to control structures and only marginally encouraged to cultivate instinct, that's what happens. From then on, I have lived in analytical mode for the 90% of time. To be able to enjoy music emotionally, to be 'in the flow', I need to stop my strong relation between physical health and attentive mind: being ill, wounded, psychologically frail. Which does not happen frequently.

I have friends who are fine musicians. When they come and listen to my system it is always interesting to wait for their comments, they are usually something along the lines of:

'The is an American orchestra, listen to the way the brass ........';

'That tympani was not properly in time ....'.

For me I now know I would prefer to hear all the musical information without being distracted by the production, something that is not entirely possible, but at least I know which side of the track i prefer to be on.

Another friend's system is:

Garrad 401/Audionote arm > YBA integrated > JBL speakers (1980s big woofer jobs) .

This system fails to resolve lots of detail, but boy can it boogie, really great fun in another way. Works superbly with the type of music he loves.

 

My only answer to your, and my, question, is to quote Socrates about wives: I can't live with it, I can't live without it.

M

Christopher_M posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

 .. sure you still have curiosity of what new equipment sounds and functions like

By and large, not here.

C.

It must be the engineer in me.. I love to kick the tyres of new machines/gadgets.... but that is a world away from wanting to change my audio system.....