Is the ND555 now the pinnacle of sound?

Alba1320 posted:

Indeed; despite all the talk of progress etc., musically, and IME, there's 'not much new under the sun' in the world of hi-fi.

Different? Certainly. Genuinely better? To some, yes, but I'm rather less convinced, generally preferring older equipment on performance grounds.

Well someone who has dealt with DSP over the years and the pros and cons of different ways of analogue signal reconstruction, the limitations of audio reconstruction in real time systems (DACs) until very recently has been quite evident... ie accuracy requires more processing power and more processing more creates more artefactsand side effects. Therefore for years a happy compromise was obtained in digital audio reproduction . Recent technology has rapidly allowed the power consumption of powerful programmable processing to fall, so many of the compromises of only a few years back can be reduced... one example of this is the increased kernel size of the FIR reconstruction filter.. and this arguably has made a big impact with the timing and low level transient response of a reconstructed signal which subjectively can prove a more insightful, layered and potentially natural reconstruction with respect to how our brains process the sound. I really notice this with choral and orchestral music and is what I call the Mandelbrot Set effect... Mathematically the perfect analogue audio digital reconstruction requires an infinitely long filter kernel albeit limited by the resolution of the sample... so everything is a compromise, but bigger is better here.

Other than that I tend to agree development has been more modestly incremental with the biggest impacts of probably being increasing the given performance for a given cost.

Innocent Bystander posted:

J.N. posted:

Kiwi cat posted:

Music reproduction peaked in the late 1980s with high quality speakers, tube amplification and the Linn Sondek with Koetsu cartridges. All that we have been doing since is trying to replicate that quality digitally and more conveniently. 

Personal taste on the valve amps angle KC; but that aside, I think you're pretty much spot on. The ND555 (at its performance peak) is a CD copying/replay machine.

GIGO.

John.

GIGO indicates clear prejudice as opposed to objective, or even subjective, assessment of the sound produced - but that does seem a common position.

Prejudice? - that inferior recording/mastering is irredeemable on a high-resolution sound system?

If the ND555 can pull more detail from ripped CD's; that great, but the source recording must be good enough for a positive result.

John.

I kind of doubt the ND555 will recover more information than the NDS, (because that part of the architecture I don’t believe is changing) however I suspect the info will be recovered in a way that has a lower noise floor and less noise artefacts, so  the effective masking level will be lower and the usable information may be greater

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I kind of doubt the ND555 will recover more information than the NDS, however I suspect the info will be recovered in a way that has a lower noise floor and less noise artefacts, so  the effective masking level will be lower

That makes sense Simon.

John.

Alba1320 posted:

I have no experience of it, nor any interest in it, but, to me, DSP room correction seems little more than a fancy 'tone control'; far better (if more 'work'), to address any problems at source i.e. the room itself (I would have thought).

But, each to their own.

Folk seem to be commenting on the current state of play with DSP, most of which I'll agree with, but room interactions are a major factor in how well your stereo system sounds, and I'm certain that in the near future DSP systems will be developed to become essential additions to our hi-fis. I've seen them improve beyond all recognition in relation to multispeaker systems, and if you've a good A/V system they're now pretty well indispensable.

J.N. posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

J.N. posted:

Kiwi cat posted:

Music reproduction peaked in the late 1980s with high quality speakers, tube amplification and the Linn Sondek with Koetsu cartridges. All that we have been doing since is trying to replicate that quality digitally and more conveniently. 

Personal taste on the valve amps angle KC; but that aside, I think you're pretty much spot on. The ND555 (at its performance peak) is a CD copying/replay machine.

GIGO.

John.

GIGO indicates clear prejudice as opposed to objective, or even subjective, assessment of the sound produced - but that does seem a common position.

Prejudice? - that inferior recording/mastering is irredeemable on a high-resolution sound system?

If the ND555 can pull more detail from ripped CD's; that great, but the source recording must be good enough for a positive result.

John.

I wholeheartedly agree IF the source recording is poorer - but my point about prejudice is that a digital recording, or mastering,doesn’t HAVE to be poor, even if some, or even many, may be. 

If someone were to sing and play an acoustic guitar in your listening room, record it, play it back using your hifi, and you could not discern any noticable difference then technology has reached the pinnacle of sound. I very much doubt the ND555 or any other DAC/streamer is quite there yet. Do hifi or pro recording manufacturers even go to the trouble of comparing live acoustic music with their reproduction of it during their listening tests during product development? Interestingly, Naim claim the ND555 is "as close to live music as it gets".

well well - it is interesting after developing Blu2 and Dave, that Chord is working on a state of the art Analog to digital converter. 

The fun never stops.

Innocent Bystander posted:

J.N. posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

J.N. posted:

Kiwi cat posted:

Music reproduction peaked in the late 1980s with high quality speakers, tube amplification and the Linn Sondek with Koetsu cartridges. All that we have been doing since is trying to replicate that quality digitally and more conveniently. 

Personal taste on the valve amps angle KC; but that aside, I think you're pretty much spot on. The ND555 (at its performance peak) is a CD copying/replay machine.

GIGO.

John.

GIGO indicates clear prejudice as opposed to objective, or even subjective, assessment of the sound produced - but that does seem a common position.

Prejudice? - that inferior recording/mastering is irredeemable on a high-resolution sound system?

If the ND555 can pull more detail from ripped CD's; that great, but the source recording must be good enough for a positive result.

John.

I wholeheartedly agree IF the source recording is poorer - but my point about prejudice is that a digital recording, or mastering,doesn’t HAVE to be poor, even if some, or even many, may be. 

Quite so. We are in accord.

John.

It may well be the pinnacle of a Naim digital source and possibly the pinnacle that some of us could afford but there are many high end systems, amps, sources, speakers out there that I suspect would sound  much better than anything Naim has to offer.

like the CD555 Naim only plan to sell a limited number of ND555

its not really a mass market product

Halloween Man posted:

Interestingly, Naim claim the ND555 is "as close to live music as it gets".

This is sales and marketing collateral.. what would you expect them to say... one is not supposed to take it literally... other than it is possibly as close as it gets with a Naim source.

The AES published a paper a little while back showing how the recording and reproduction chain of audio was such that it was limited by a significant degree on how close it could get to reality... or what the author called true High Definition... 

Now if Naim (or any other manufacturer) matched the ADC of their recording mastering suite and/or DAW with the reconstruction response of their DACs using a very high bandwidth (in terms of timing) they have the potential of genuinely getting a lot closer to the original music being recorded in terms of reality.

J.N. posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

I wholeheartedly agree IF the source recording is poorer - but my point about prejudice is that a digital recording, or mastering,doesn’t HAVE to be poor, even if some, or even many, may be. 

Quite so. We are in accord.

John.

I don’t particularly like live music as it’s too damn loud 

I much prefer my naim system all the dynamics at much more gentle volume levels

analogmusic posted:

I don’t particularly like live music as it’s too damn loud 

There are some good noise reducing ear inserts available that significantly reduce the volume reaching the ears. There are also versions that allow one to select how much noise reduction they would like. I understand that your system gives you much pleasure but live performances can be particularly memorable. Perhaps it's something to consider in future.

analogmusic posted:

well well - it is interesting after developing Blu2 and Dave, that Chord is working on a state of the art Analog to digital converter. 

The fun never stops.

Great news indeed. So one will take his favorite LP – probably pressed from a digital master, if it's not older than 20 or 30 years –, will play it while the Magic Box by Chord reads it (and its arbitrary lot of sonic interpretation means: stylus, cartridge, straws, tracking force, anti-skating regulation, TT setup, phono stage and so on) and transform it into a digital file – which it was in the beginning, but not yet corrupted by the series of mechanical biases meanwhile interposed– to be able to play like a CD, or store in a NAS (which may even cost as much as the belt of the LP12) and replay it via a 10,000 streamer.

Or is it intended to be used with a 1980s portable cassette player, mic incorporated, to record live music? And, while I am at it, I suppose that all the remaining recording companies which still produce LPs will ditch all their costly, sophisticated digital equipment and simply stick two mikes into the Chord ADC. Top quality, end of all the hassle.

Yes, the fun never stops.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Halloween Man posted:

Interestingly, Naim claim the ND555 is "as close to live music as it gets".

This is sales and marketing collateral.. what would you expect them to say... one is not supposed to take it literally... other than it is possibly as close as it gets with a Naim source.

It's also a compliment to Naim, in that their goal is to attempt to recreate live acoustic music.

analogmusic posted:

I don’t particularly like live music as it’s too damn loud 

I much prefer my naim system all the dynamics at much more gentle volume levels

 

Most live music, as in played back through a PA system, sounds awful and I'm sure not a goal of Naim!

It's about live acoustic music, such as an orchestra in a concert hall, a singer song writer with his Martin acoustic guitar and harmonica, or standing in front of an electric guitar player playing his cherry Gibson 335 through a Fender Deluxe tube amp.

Halloween Man posted:

analogmusic posted:

I don’t particularly like live music as it’s too damn loud 

I much prefer my naim system all the dynamics at much more gentle volume levels

 

It's about live acoustic music, such as an orchestra in a concert hall...

I politely disagree, to my ears there are many recordings that are more enjoyable than the experience of listening to a live orchestra in a concert hall. For example, when many instruments are being played at the same time, it is often difficult to hear the voice of a solo violin expressing its almost human character. In addition, electric guitars may also have a very desirable quality that is different to an acoustic guitar.

The last concert I attended was so unpleasantly loud, that I couldn’t enjoy it

same with the latest movie i saw in the cinema

too loud..... too damn loud

im very happy I have a Naim hi fi and wont be attending live shows unless it’s truly exceptional 

Just played guns and roses on vinyl .... it rocks .... 

analogmusic posted:

Just played guns and roses on vinyl .... it rocks .... 

If you ever visit London, I would like to extend you an open invitation to come and have a listen to my humble system.

I am looking forward to hear your system Minh and will be in touch !

Minh Nguyen posted:

analogmusic posted:

Just played guns and roses on vinyl .... it rocks .... 

If you ever visit London, I would like to extend you an open invitation to come and have a listen to my humble system.

which part is humble? ) 

Minh Nguyen posted:

analogmusic posted:

Just played guns and roses on vinyl .... it rocks .... 

If you ever visit London, I would like to extend you an open invitation to come and have a listen to my humble system.

nds 555 552 500 is of course an humble and entry level system 

I see a number of people on that quest on the forum.... but humbly... I'm very happy on my lowly 282/250DR system....

If I had the funds for a 552/500 sure, but  I feel truly blessed to have what I got...