Cassette Deck for Less than a Grand

Minh, first question; will you be using it to make and replay your own recordings, or will it be for replaying recordings made on other machines, or on pre-recorded cassettes?

Richard, I would like to copy some of my music library which is mainly streamed from my NDS to cassette tape in the hope that it makes certain recordings more listenable. I used to own a Technics CDP many moons ago and it was a great little performer but it had a tendency to render some recordings almost unlistenably bright sounding. After copying to an AIWA deck the sound was much warmer in comparison and hence much more enjoyable (for certain recordings). Ian regarded you as one of the foremost experts with regards to cassette decks.

Minh, so if I have it right, you want to use the cassette deck as a kind of processor/filter to make poorly mastered digital recordings sound more palatable?*

The problem with that is that it does rather seem to rule out the best recorders which remain very faithful to the source, adding or taking away very little. Of course, you can try different tapes as well as applying differing levels of bias and EQ for subtle tonal shifts, and here a top recorder becomes essential, but ultimately much will depend on the character of the recorder's electronics.

You mention an Aiwa deck, and my experience of the AD-F660/770/990 series was that they were excellent decks that  had a very sweet sound - certainly using them as recorders they were a great way of making early CDs replayed on early Japanese CD players sound much nicer but without introducing obvious wooziness or vagueness to the sound. They were better at this than the equivalent Nakamichi models which were somewhat more faithful to the source. A good ADF-770 is still an excellent deck and may just fit the bill here - no need to spend £1k though.  A serviced example should cost under £400.  The only drawback for your purposes is that the bias, level and EQ adjustment is all automated, so you are reliant on Aiwa's own judgement here. 

Beyond that, the earlier Nakamichis have always stepped on the slightly warmer side of the neutral tonal line compared to later ones, so maybe a serviced 482, 482Z, 582, 582Z, 682 or 682Z would be a good choice. I've always found the 58x series a bit of an ugly duckling so would personally favour one of the others, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so don't let me put you off what is otherwise an excellent deck.  Also consider an LX-5 or ZX-7, although the last one may be pushing your budget too far once a service is taken into account.

That should give you a bit more food for thought...

*I assume that you are unable to source better sounding source material here, otherwise the obvious answer applies.

Richard Dane posted:

Minh, so if I have it right, you want to use the cassette deck as a kind of processor/filter to make poorly mastered digital recordings sound more palatable?*

The problem with that is that it does rather seem to rule out the best recorders which remain very faithful to the source, adding or taking away very little. Of course, you can try different tapes as well as applying differing levels of bias and EQ for subtle tonal shifts, and here a top recorder becomes essential, but ultimately much will depend on the character of the recorder's electronics.

You mention an Aiwa deck, and my experience of the AD-F660/770/990 series was that they were excellent decks that  had a very sweet sound - certainly using them as recorders they were a great way of making early CDs replayed on early Japanese CD players sound much nicer but without introducing obvious wooziness or vagueness to the sound. They were better at this than the equivalent Nakamichi models which were somewhat more faithful to the source. A good ADF-770 is still an excellent deck and may just fit the bill here - no need to spend £1k though.  A serviced example should cost under £400.  The only drawback for your purposes is that the bias, level and EQ adjustment is all automated, so you are reliant on Aiwa's own judgement here. 

Beyond that, the earlier Nakamichis have always stepped on the slightly warmer side of the neutral tonal line compared to later ones, so maybe a serviced 482, 482Z, 582, 582Z, 682 or 682Z would be a good choice. I've always found the 58x series a bit of an ugly duckling so would personally favour one of the others, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so don't let me put you off what is otherwise an excellent deck.  Also consider an LX-5 or ZX-7, although the last one may be pushing your budget too far once a service is taken into account.

That should give you a bit more food for thought...

*I assume that you are unable to source better sounding source material here, otherwise the obvious answer applies.

Richard Is it still possible to buy blank MC's of a reasonable audio quality?

Bluedog, yes, although you have to be a bit patient, a little lucky, and hang out on that auction site...

Of the widely available cassettes, still available in shops, you are left with basic type I tapes - probably your best bet here are TDK Ds.  They won't set the world alight, but they're a decent competent cooking tape that in it's later forms was usually a good cut above the others.

For good value look out for Fuji cassettes.  They tend to be overlooked by those in search of the more common TDKs, Maxells, etc.. Fuji made some of the very best cassettes.  I recently picked up some boxes of 10 Fuji K1 for around £1.50 per tape (a great price for such a good tape).  This was a premium super-ferric of superb performance.  On a top deck like my own Nak ZX-9 a good quality premium ferric can get often outperform Metal tape on a lesser deck.  Also look out for K2, which was the type 2 version - an excellent substitute for TDK SA or XLII.  I would steer clear of Fuji's DR series though.  They are commonly available and cheap.  They're Ok at a pinch, but you can do better.

Instead of TDK SA, why not choose AR instead.  It can sometimes be available for a bargain when a seller doesn't know what they have - they just read it's a normal type I tape and think it's so-so.  They couldn't be more wrong.  TDK AR was superb, one of the very best tapes ever made, short of the premium metals. 

It's a bit of a lottery as to what's out there, and at what price, but sometimes you get lucky...

Apologies Minh but I don't ever see my best mate's one time JVC KD720 on these cassette deck features 

C.

Christopher_M posted:

Apologies Minh but I don't ever see my best mate's one time JVC KD720 on these cassette deck features 

C.

No worries. M.

Richard, Thank you very much for your comprehensive overview. I'll soon be parting with my much loved NDS so I could use the cassette deck to copy over some CDs to keep me going whilst I patiently wait in line for the ND555. My old AIWA provided me with much pleasure so I am seriously considering the ADF770.

I can’t help thinking something in your setup is emphasising the brightness, a misplaced cable (or a silver one) perhaps.

I recognise the tape trick from the early days of CD as I also found it the only way to stand listening to a Philips player a housemate had brought home (we ran a communal system in that house and no one ever messed up a cartridge except me and it was my Eroica L I killed). The tapes didn’t make the music more interesting unfotunately (that took vinyl) just less irritating. 

Presumably it’s not a recently installed setup, I had a system sound appaulingly bright when first setup but on the next visit a few months later (it’s in our French apartment) the brightness wasn’t even hinted at. I have no explaination for this and I’m bloody certain it’s not my imagination, it wasn’t a subtle difference. Try Tori Amos live in Montreux 1991 and 1992 as a test. It was excruciating the first time round but very listenable upon our return and though could hear it was a electric piano it no longer jarred.

Have you considered a high end Sony Minidisc player? I know that the mini disc ATRAC format is lossy, but in my experience the best minidisc players from Sony outperform any cassette deck I have heard by a long way, and to boot are much more convenient to use.

Since this is going to be a temporary venture and used to record your own CDs, the cost of purchasing a top quality minidisc deck and minidiscs to use along with it will almost certainly be significantly less than that of a top end cassette deck and blank cassettes in reasonable condition.   

Minh,

I think a Aiwa F 770 in good condition would be perfect for your requirements.A top Nak will perhaps trump it sound wise but for the money saved you can source a lot of blank tapes for your transfers.Recordings off your ND 555 on it will be interesting as it will impart some of that very smooth Aiwa sound on if the recording being streamed sounds a bit digitally hard.Can't see this happening with the ND 555 though as it's been along time in development and I am sure from what I have read on it here will show some new tricks sound wise and be a Statement level source component.

Richard,

Here is a bit of Audio Nostalgia to share with you.My first deck a Aiwa AD 3100 brought in 1980 when I was 15.Fabulous deck.The LED's where sexy and it had what you have mentioned in other cassette discussions here,that smooth Aiwa sound.Absolutely no high frequency brightness at all.Think a F770 would be perfect for Minh......good call

yeti42 posted:

I can’t help thinking something in your setup is emphasising the brightness, a misplaced cable (or a silver one) perhaps.

I recognise the tape trick from the early days of CD as I also found it the only way to stand listening to a Philips player a housemate had brought home (we ran a communal system in that house and no one ever messed up a cartridge except me and it was my Eroica L I killed). The tapes didn’t make the music more interesting unfotunately (that took vinyl) just less irritating. 

Presumably it’s not a recently installed setup, I had a system sound appaulingly bright when first setup but on the next visit a few months later (it’s in our French apartment) the brightness wasn’t even hinted at. I have no explaination for this and I’m bloody certain it’s not my imagination, it wasn’t a subtle difference. Try Tori Amos live in Montreux 1991 and 1992 as a test. It was excruciating the first time round but very listenable upon our return and though could hear it was a electric piano it no longer jarred.

My wiring loom is composed of 6N OCC silver and the detail they reveal is very much to my liking. It happens that there are some recordings that have always been a little bright, even with the standard Naim cables. Touching cables has never been an issue for me because my poor cloth ears don't notice any real difference. I would like to try the Tori Amos album that you suggest but I'm afraid I only have a copy of Under the Pink.

Hmack posted:

Have you considered a high end Sony Minidisc player? I know that the mini disc ATRAC format is lossy, but in my experience the best minidisc players from Sony outperform any cassette deck I have heard by a long way, and to boot are much more convenient to use.

Since this is going to be a temporary venture and used to record your own CDs, the cost of purchasing a top quality minidisc deck and minidiscs to use along with it will almost certainly be significantly less than that of a top end cassette deck and blank cassettes in reasonable condition.   

This is a really good suggestion. I used to own a portable minidisk player and a full sized player. Both were Sony. The convenience was unsurpassed. From my recollection, the sound is as you describe, a little lossy but still very engaging. Which player would you suggest? 

This was my first deck, a Sharp RT-10. My best friends father had an electronics shop with a record section. Whenever a new batch of records arrived he would bring them over and I would make copies of them for the both of us. Those were the days .

Tabby cat posted:

Minh,

I think a Aiwa F 770 in good condition would be perfect for your requirements.A top Nak will perhaps trump it sound wise but for the money saved you can source a lot of blank tapes for your transfers.Recordings off your ND 555 on it will be interesting as it will impart some of that very smooth Aiwa sound on if the recording being streamed sounds a bit digitally hard.Can't see this happening with the ND 555 though as it's been along time in development and I am sure from what I have read on it here will show some new tricks sound wise and be a Statement level source component.

 

 

Ian, The post by [@mention:23389351210890912] has reminded me about how much I used to enjoy listening to my minidisk player. I am now really torn between the two formats...

Why not just take a copy of your digital file, re-name it and then manipulate the file digitally to give you the sound you want?  No need for a cassette deck, just some software.

sunbeamgls posted:

Why not just take a copy of your digital file, re-name it and then manipulate the file digitally to give you the sound you want?  No need for a cassette deck, just some software.

Sounds very interesting. Would you be so kind to provide more details? For example, is it a simple process? Does the edited file sound realistic? Etc

Minh Nguyen posted:

Tabby cat posted:

Minh,

I think a Aiwa F 770 in good condition would be perfect for your requirements.A top Nak will perhaps trump it sound wise but for the money saved you can source a lot of blank tapes for your transfers.Recordings off your ND 555 on it will be interesting as it will impart some of that very smooth Aiwa sound on if the recording being streamed sounds a bit digitally hard.Can't see this happening with the ND 555 though as it's been along time in development and I am sure from what I have read on it here will show some new tricks sound wise and be a Statement level source component.

 

 

Ian, The post by [@mention:23389351210890912] has reminded me about how much I used to enjoy listening to my minidisk player. I am now really torn between the two formats...

Hi Minh,

Something like a Sony MDS JB930 or JB940 using ATRAC-R would sound really good, and can be picked up on Ebay in the UK for around £150. Minidiscs themselves can be picked up on Ebay for next to nothing.

Of course you can get other models from Sony or other manufacturers for much less than this , but the ATRAC-R models are definitely worth the extra. I had a JB930 which was very good indeed, and as I mentioned much better in terms of both convenience and sound quality than any cassette deck I have ever heard

- disclaimer - I have never heard one of the top of the range Nakamichi decks, but they would be very much more expensive, good quality tapes would be more difficult to source and I also suspect that it would not sound as good.

Good luck with your temporary purchase and with the ND555 when it eventually arrives!

Minh Nguyen posted:

sunbeamgls posted:

Why not just take a copy of your digital file, re-name it and then manipulate the file digitally to give you the sound you want?  No need for a cassette deck, just some software.

Sounds very interesting. Would you be so kind to provide more details? For example, is it a simple process? Does the edited file sound realistic? Etc

If you intend to buy an ND555 (or any of the new generation Naim streamers) take out a free trial of Roon and have a play with its parametric EQ. It's more or less a digital graphic equaliser which is highly configurable, so you can adjust it at will, and save different settings. Then again, perhaps this will be the last thing on your mind with an ND555. 

Hmack, I remember the Sony JB940QS as well as the high-end JA3ES.  In my opinion there was no comparison to something like a top end Nakamichi.  At best, they sounded like a middling to fairly good CD player of the time, whereas something like the ZX-9 had no "digititus" and, at best, approached reel to reel sound quality.

However, I agree that a minidisc player and software would probably be cheaper to buy.

Speaking of R2R, some years back I recorded a 24/192 file (played back on Usb stick in a Naim DAC/555PS) onto my Revox 77A 2 track at 7 1/2 ips using a 10.5in reel of BASF PEM468.  I played it to some guests, a couple of whom thought it sounded really good, and asked whether it was a  copy of the master tape.  I played along with that, and played them the 24/192 file followed by the same track from the reel.  They all preferred the reel believing it was the more spacious and "analogue" sounding of the two.  An interesting little experiment...

Minh Nguyen posted:

sunbeamgls posted:

Why not just take a copy of your digital file, re-name it and then manipulate the file digitally to give you the sound you want?  No need for a cassette deck, just some software.

Sounds very interesting. Would you be so kind to provide more details? For example, is it a simple process? Does the edited file sound realistic? Etc

Start with plug-ins for dbpoweramp and go from there. Google is your friend and bing might be a good buddy.

Never used any of them, but you seem to want to create a non-realistic version anyway, otherwise you wouldn't be asking about a cassette deck as a processor.

Hi there, I have a serviced and recapped Nakamichi 482 (3 heads with the analogue meters) and it sounds very good and very close to the Phonosophie or NAT01. I haven’t tried it off digital yet but you can’t go wrong, but please get it serviced

Richard Dane posted:

Hmack, I remember the Sony JB940QS as well as the high-end JA3ES.  In my opinion there was no comparison to something like a top end Nakamichi.  At best, they sounded like a middling to fairly good CD player of the time, whereas something like the ZX-9 had no "digititus" and, at best, approached reel to reel sound quality.

However, I agree that a minidisc player and software would probably be cheaper to buy.

Speaking of R2R, some years back I recorded a 24/192 file (played back on Usb stick in a Naim DAC/555PS) onto my Revox 77A 2 track at 7 1/2 ips using a 10.5in reel of BASF PEM468.  I played it to some guests, a couple of whom thought it sounded really good, and asked whether it was a  copy of the master tape.  I played along with that, and played them the 24/192 file followed by the same track from the reel.  They all preferred the reel believing it was the more spacious and "analogue" sounding of the two.  An interesting little experiment...

Richard, 

If a top end Nakamichi approaches good reel to reel sound quality, then it might indeed sound better, but as you say the JB940 or even the JA3ES would be cheaper to buy and would certainly sound 'inoffensive', and would be a pretty good short term solution. That sounds like damning with faint praise, but in my view many other digital components of the time were a bit to aggressive or 'bright' sounding for my liking.

I too have a couple of reel-to-reel decks. I have a Revox B77 (unfortunately the 7 1/2" 4 track version) which doesn't sound so great, and a reconditioned Pioneer RT-909 (better caps and output amps) that has been calibrated for use with modern LPR 35 tape. This does sound very good, and I have recorded a few hi-res files on it at 7 1/2" ips that also sound very nearly as good as the original. I guess in your case the output amps of the Revox (are they the originals?) must 'soften' the sound a little bit giving a sound that your guests preferred.

I really have my tape deck because I always wanted a good reel to reel deck back in the 70s/80s but couldn't quite afford a good one (I still can't afford to get involved in the 'Tape Project' scene), but it does get occasional use recording the odd album from Tidal (naughty) that I have on vinyl, but that isn't available to buy in digital format.

Minh,

Have you thought about a decent re-conditioned reel-to-reel deck? Not as cheap as a top end cassette deck or minidisc player, but a much nicer object to own, play and treasure. Just kidding really - I think.     

Hmack, yes it's a very early (but well maintained) 77A  2 track and the discrete electronic stages in these early units sound really sweet with a valve-like bloom and air. My later A77s sound rather different, and arguably not quite as alluring.

If it's just about trying to make poor source material more palatable, then there may well be better ways of going about it - DSP and digital EQ would probably be the way to go.  However, if you want to have a bit of fun with some vintage gear, then tape, whether cassette or R2R,  is a certainly an interesting, if potentially costly, option, but one that is not without rewards.