Will Naim produce a stand-alone DAC from the ND555?

I did try asking Steve Sells when the forum members visited recently. When he put up a schematic of the DAC section with DR power supply.......it just looked an obvious next step at some point to do a stand alone. He politely declined to comment on future product. Nigel also asked about a 372 and perhaps got a little more hope in that Trevor acknowledged the success of the 272 and an obvious market pull for it. We will have to wait as usual.

I suspect not... I think they seem the future for them with DACs is having them streamer enabled... now if Naim pulled away from TI DAC chips and Analog Devices DSP, and went more self developed/specified, then possibly... but I think the R&D costs and skill sets required might be beyond Naim currently for that... and their focus is therefore what they do and know best around the product development/styling, electronics, DSP config, decoupling and electro mechanics supporting the off the shelf devices... and therefore the streamers make an ideal focus for that.

Another factor is they may have as they say got a few cupboards full of the 1704k chips, but perhaps not enough to create and support yet another new product.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I suspect not... I think they seem the future for them with DACs is having them streamer enabled... now if Naim pulled away from TI DAC chips and Analog Devices DSP, and went more self developed/specified, then possibly... but I think the R&D costs and skill sets required might be beyond Naim currently for that... and their focus is therefore what they do and know best around the product development/styling, electronics, DSP config, decoupling and electro mechanics supporting the off the shelf devices... and therefore the streamers make an ideal focus for that.

totally agree.

If they do it would fit in the overall scheme as an upgrade for the two new nd streamers under the 555.   Although a new dac would still broaden Naim appeal outside Naim streamer users as a next step up digital hub.   The Ndac is one of Naims best bargains. A new dac with tech borrowed from latest developments would likely cost more than double, putting off buyers in this market perhaps.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

... now if Naim pulled away from TI DAC chips and Analog Devices DSP, and went more self developed/specified, then possibly... 

It would mean having a Naim Hugo, but at 43 x 34 x 9 cm classic size I have perplexities regarding its portability.

Massimo Bertola posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

... now if Naim pulled away from TI DAC chips and Analog Devices DSP, and went more self developed/specified, then possibly... 

It would mean having a Naim Hugo, but at 43 x 34 x 9 cm classic size I have perplexities regarding its portability.

Perhaps a Naim styled rucksack with Super Lumina fasteners and Statement stitching 

Burr Brown (Texas Instruments) 1704K DAC chip is still considered the best sounding one even outside NaimWorld. I think that Naim could come out with something different when they'll have the DAC equivalent of the DR. So far, the old 1704K has proved more than adequate.

Or perhaps those who are ready to toss 5/6-digit figures for audio – and expect consequent social recognition – would find it hard to swallow that the same DAC chip was used in the CDX5x, the N-Dac, the CDX2, the CDS3, the CDP555....

The 1704K is well regarded and hugely loved outside the Naim world especially in audiophile land... and it’s a device where a lot of skill in working with it has developed in the industry. But fundamentally it’s a relatively old technology that is disproportionately expensive to manufacturer with technical limitations. There are better technologies out there now with greater potential... however almost certainly Naim don’t yet have the skills to take advantage of that yet... it’s not easy. The same goes, in my opinion, for the DSP processor and the reconstruction filter. It was quite telling that these modules wereunchanged in the ND555, but the surrounding supporting electronics and decoupling were very much optimised. It’s where their skill sets lie... remember this is the path that started with Naim DAC .. and in part the CD555 before, it has taken a long time to finesse, and so won’t be an easy or cheap thing to change...  But as the 1704K is now effectively obsolete I’d be surprised if Naim, now the ND555 is just about out there are not, for the sake of  sustainability are not now looking at succession technology.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

There are better technologies [than 1704K] out there now with greater potential... however almost certainly Naim don’t yet have the skills to take advantage of that yet...

I wonder who does.

Linn we’re hiring 3 people back end of last year for FPGA “Chord” like technology implementation. I guess Naim could do the same if they wanted, would take a few years to develop though.

I think from a marketing perspective it would be a strange move as it would if done well compete with the ND555 and people would start asking why they spent so much on a ND555 while a DAC driven by a lower spec source sounds as good.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

The 1704K is well regarded and hugely loved outside the Naim world especially in audiophile land... and it’s a device where a lot of skill in working with it has developed in the industry. But fundamentally it’s a relatively old technology that is disproportionately expensive to manufacturer with technical limitations. There are better technologies out there now with greater potential... however almost certainly Naim don’t yet have the skills to take advantage of that yet... it’s not easy. The same goes, in my opinion, for the DSP processor and the reconstruction filter. It was quite telling that these modules wereunchanged in the ND555, but the surrounding supporting electronics and decoupling were very much optimised. It’s where their skill sets lie... remember this is the path that started with Naim DAC .. and in part the CD555 before, it has taken a long time to finesse, and so won’t be an easy or cheap thing to change...  But as the 1704K is now effectively obsolete I’d be surprised if Naim, now the ND555 is just about out there are not, for the sake of  sustainability are not now looking at succession technology.

Bravo Simon! You managed to say more or less what I had just said in little less than twice the words! I wish I had such a sense of synthesis.

(Just joking).

Christopher_M posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

There are better technologies [than 1704K] out there now with greater potential... however almost certainly Naim don’t yet have the skills to take advantage of that yet...

I wonder who does.

Are you talking Shiite, or just pulling our Chords?

yeti42 posted:

Christopher_M posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

There are better technologies [than 1704K] out there now with greater potential... however almost certainly Naim don’t yet have the skills to take advantage of that yet...

I wonder who does.

Are you talking Shiite, or just pulling our Chords?

He’s trying to set a new Benchmark. 

I've always thought actually upgrading a streamer with an offboard DAC a bit strange. I mean, yes there are rational reasons for doing it once a streamer is a bit long in the tooth or no current streamers quite float your boat sound-wise, but essentially, it is like upgrading a DAC with another DAC. Ergo, the logical upgrade for a streamer is to buy a better streamer (assuming you can find one you like).

As for new DACs from Naim, it is certainly possible but seems like a tough sell. I mean, age aside, if you subscribe to the thinking that there is more life in the current technology then there is not much wrong with the nDAC and as has been pointed out, it's a bargain. A new DAC too closely matching the ND555 in performance is either going to be so expensive that you might as well get an ND555 or not expensive enough and cannibalise ND555 sales.

Anyone dead set on the Naim route will still find a nDAC a nice upgrade to a ND5XS or NDX and if they want to spend a bit more get an actual NDX2. It is hard to see a viable niche for a new nDAC2 in the current line up.

feeling_zen posted:

I've always thought actually upgrading a streamer with an offboard DAC a bit strange. I mean, yes there are rational reasons for doing it once a streamer is a bit long in the tooth or no current streamers quite float your boat sound-wise, but essentially, it is like upgrading a DAC with another DAC. Ergo, the logical upgrade for a streamer is to buy a better streamer (assuming you can find one you like).

I was toying with the idea of changing my NDX for an ND5XS2 and offboard DAC. Now I’m confused, would that be an upgrade, a downgrade, or both ????

ChrisSU posted:

yeti42 posted:

Christopher_M posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

There are better technologies [than 1704K] out there now with greater potential... however almost certainly Naim don’t yet have the skills to take advantage of that yet...

I wonder who does.

Are you talking Shiite, or just pulling our Chords?

He’s trying to set a new Benchmark. 

Or making a Statement.

ChrisSU posted:

feeling_zen posted:

I've always thought actually upgrading a streamer with an offboard DAC a bit strange. I mean, yes there are rational reasons for doing it once a streamer is a bit long in the tooth or no current streamers quite float your boat sound-wise, but essentially, it is like upgrading a DAC with another DAC. Ergo, the logical upgrade for a streamer is to buy a better streamer (assuming you can find one you like).

I was toying with the idea of changing my NDX for an ND5XS2 and offboard DAC. Now I’m confused, would that be an upgrade, a downgrade, or both ????

I must admit it had crossed my mind you get the new streamer technology with ND5XS2, and perhaps a Chord Dave would get you past the NDX2 and a 555ps for SQ. You would save a few grand? Worth a demo?

ChrisSU posted:

feeling_zen posted:

I've always thought actually upgrading a streamer with an offboard DAC a bit strange. I mean, yes there are rational reasons for doing it once a streamer is a bit long in the tooth or no current streamers quite float your boat sound-wise, but essentially, it is like upgrading a DAC with another DAC. Ergo, the logical upgrade for a streamer is to buy a better streamer (assuming you can find one you like).

I was toying with the idea of changing my NDX for an ND5XS2 and offboard DAC. Now I’m confused, would that be an upgrade, a downgrade, or both ????

Beats me. Surely the upgrade from an NDX is a XPSdr (if you like what it does) or a ND555.

As much improved as an NDX2 may be over the NDX, constant sideways moves also strike me as odd. Like thinking the upgrade to a 2017 Ford Focus is a 2018 Ford Focus. As opposed to something else entirely. If I was tempted to part with my NDX and going the Naim route, I certainly wouldn't bother with a NDX2 even if it was better than an NDS. I'd go for a ND555 today or skip a generation and go for a NDX3 in a decade from now.

If your streaming source is 99.9% UPnP, then a new streaming platform has no functionality you'll need anyway.

That's not to say that constant sideways approach is wrong. I saw plenty of people buy a CDS1, CDS2, and then CDS3. I just personally can't get my head around it. But I digress, I think the problem with a new Naim DAC is not there being a market for it (I suspect there is) but finding no logical way of fitting it into the range without cannibalising sales. And as others have pointed out, if tech has moved on and Naim are not geared up for working with more current technologies, then the current nDAC is still a mighty find example of the current old methodology at an attractive price point.

feeling_zen posted:

ChrisSU posted:

feeling_zen posted:

I've always thought actually upgrading a streamer with an offboard DAC a bit strange. I mean, yes there are rational reasons for doing it once a streamer is a bit long in the tooth or no current streamers quite float your boat sound-wise, but essentially, it is like upgrading a DAC with another DAC. Ergo, the logical upgrade for a streamer is to buy a better streamer (assuming you can find one you like).

I was toying with the idea of changing my NDX for an ND5XS2 and offboard DAC. Now I’m confused, would that be an upgrade, a downgrade, or both ????

Beats me. Surely the upgrade from an NDX is a XPSdr (if you like what it does) or a ND555.

As much improved as an NDX2 may be over the NDX, constant sideways moves also strike me as odd. Like thinking the upgrade to a 2017 Ford Focus is a 2018 Ford Focus. As opposed to something else entirely. If I was tempted to part with my NDX and going the Naim route, I certainly wouldn't bother with a NDX2 even if it was better than an NDS. I'd go for a ND555 today or skip a generation and go for a NDX3 in a decade from now.

If your streaming source is 99.9% UPnP, then a new streaming platform has no functionality you'll need anyway.

That's not to say that constant sideways approach is wrong. I saw plenty of people buy a CDS1, CDS2, and then CDS3. I just personally can't get my head around it. But I digress, I think the problem with a new Naim DAC is not there being a market for it (I suspect there is) but finding no logical way of fitting it into the range without cannibalising sales. And as others have pointed out, if tech has moved on and Naim are not geared up for working with more current technologies, then the current nDAC is still a mighty find example of the current old methodology at an attractive price point.

My feeling is that as a transport into a separate DAC, an ND5XS2 might be more or less as good as an NDX2, so that’s a comparison I would want to make. Not that I’m in any way unhappy with my NDX, certainly for local streaming. I am finding, though, that I use web streaming more than I used to. Tidal is still not up to local CD rip standards, but it’s closer than it used to be, and I suspect that with some fine tuning, web streams in general could be made to sound just the same as local UPnP. 

Regarding the PSU vs DAC upgrade idea, I am more inclined to look at an offboard DAC, but that’s a discussion that has been had numerous times over the last couple of years, so I’m not sure if there’s anything new to add now. 

ChrisSU posted:

yeti42 posted:

Christopher_M posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

There are better technologies [than 1704K] out there now with greater potential... however almost certainly Naim don’t yet have the skills to take advantage of that yet...

I wonder who does.

Are you talking Shiite, or just pulling our Chords?

He’s trying to set a new Benchmark. 

Do you have the NADs to say that to his face?

Bart posted:

ChrisSU posted:

yeti42 posted:

Christopher_M posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

There are better technologies [than 1704K] out there now with greater potential... however almost certainly Naim don’t yet have the skills to take advantage of that yet...

I wonder who does.

Are you talking Shiite, or just pulling our Chords?

He’s trying to set a new Benchmark. 

Do you have the NADs to say that to his face?

No, I would hate to lose my Mojo. 

Hugo to laugh at some of these posts...

Massimo Bertola posted:

Burr Brown (Texas Instruments) 1704K DAC chip is still considered the best sounding one even outside NaimWorld. I think that Naim could come out with something different when they'll have the DAC equivalent of the DR. So far, the old 1704K has proved more than adequate.

Or perhaps those who are ready to toss 5/6-digit figures for audio – and expect consequent social recognition – would find it hard to swallow that the same DAC chip was used in the CDX5x, the N-Dac, the CDX2, the CDS3, the CDP555....

Glad you raised this Massimo.... the minute I heard what the ND555 does in comparison to the NDS, I thought to myself  "This is the stuff social recognition is made of, I wonder how much it is?"    So I said to Geoff, who was running the demo,  "How much is it?"  and he told me "£13,000".   I thought to myself "YES, five figures... this will surely be social recognition at last."   And so I said to Geoff  "Yes, do top up my glass of wine, oh, and order me one of these ND555s as well Geoff".   And to be perfectly frank with you, it didn't occur to me to ask where else the DAC chip was likely to be found;  the fact that it was a new product... with a five figure price tag... and sounds nice, was enough.

Well, as I remember, that was roughly how it went, and I suspect the same is true of lots of other folk who've ordered one already