Qobuz streaming tipping point

The Sublime subscription has more than justified itself on playback alone, but add in the discounts on purchases and it's a no-brainer for me.

The only minor pain is having to use Kazoo alongside the Naim App - how I'd love integration! 

I prefer the lumin app instead of the kazoo app, because the qobuz new album (discover) section is separated into genres and each genre does show more new albums than the combined genre view that is missing some albums each week.

Yes I use LUMIN here as well... and like how it works with Qobuz

Been waiting to try Qobuz, will try via Bubble Upnp, are you on Sublime +?

Simon, assume I can use Tidal the same way, for now?

Gravitating back to 3 steaming subscriptions now, which I don't want, Qobuz (maybe for Naim), Tidal (Naim and Car), Spotify (Family account).

Shame Qobuz don't do Android Auto or Carplay.

Hi, yes you can use Tidal the same way... but for some reason Tidal often sounds inferior to home streaming and Qobuz .. it’s like many of their  masters have been subtly mangled in some way... quite bizarre.

No I don’t use sublime currently.

Yes the reason I use Bubble UPnP Server is that it converts the RTP media transfer such that it appears identical to locally streamed media because that is what it has become using the proxy server.. your Naim streamer sees Qobuz as if it was a home CD rip being streamed.

Tidal is supported natively by the naim app. Why do you want to stream it via BubbleUPnP?

The only advantage could be if you let BubbleUPnPServer transcode the flac stream to wav on the fly. This does sound better at least with the older unitis IMHO.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

...

So there we have it... I thought I’d share... now waiting for our village to be Superfast enabled (the fibres and cabs are in - just waiting for the final cab activation this summer) ... I should then be on between 30 to 40 Mbps download according to my calculation up from my current 3.2 Mbps... and then I can try hires streams hopefully via this method... interesting times.

With 30-40 Mbps you could also give the Digital Concert Hall a try and also enjoy hires videos together with a rather sumptuous audio. If I am not mistaken the interviews are still for free and the archive offers meanwhile hundreds of great concerts. Interesting times indeed ... 

Thanks Simon - That's very interesting, thank you. Would you mind explaining the architecture a bit? What device runs Bubble UPNP and how is it attached to the Naim streamer? And also, how do you control it (eg Naim app or something else?) 

I've long felt the future was cloud streaming, but haven't made the leap yet. I'm interested in how you're doing it.

Thanks!

gert posted:

Tidal is supported natively by the naim app. Why do you want to stream it via BubbleUPnP?

The only advantage could be if you let BubbleUPnPServer transcode the flac stream to wav on the fly. This does sound better at least with the older unitis IMHO.

Get, I think you have missed the whole point of my thread, the point in using BubbleUPnP Server is to create a streaming proxy server.. so external internet streaming is identical as far as the streamer is concerned as local NAS streaming... the inter frame timing consistency and optimal TCP operation are the same... this has a huge difference on SQ.. certainly on the classic streamers... effectively Qobuz and NAS streaming becomes identical.

Tidal seem to do something with many of their masters which sounds to my ears inferior and certainly not conducive to immersive listening as with Qobuz and NAS... so even using this proxy method Tidal doesn’t match the other sources in terms of SQ, but does sound better.

The FLAC bit I find comes into play if you use the built in DAC in the Naim streamers, if you use  certain off board DACs fed by the streamer I find the differences between ALAC, WAV and FLAC effectively indistinguishable in terms of SQ and enjoyment. (Although there are everso slight differences just about detectable)

nbpf posted:

With 30-40 Mbps you could also give the Digital Concert Hall a try and also enjoy hires videos together with a rather sumptuous audio. If I am not mistaken the interviews are still for free and the archive offers meanwhile hundreds of great concerts. Interesting times indeed ... 

Thanks I’ll look out for that....

Solid Air posted:

Thanks Simon - That's very interesting, thank you. Would you mind explaining the architecture a bit? What device runs Bubble UPNP and how is it attached to the Naim streamer? And also, how do you control it (eg Naim app or something else?) 

I've long felt the future was cloud streaming, but haven't made the leap yet. I'm interested in how you're doing it.

Thanks!

Hi SA, I run the BubbleUPnP Server on a RaspberryPi.. these are little (kitchen match box sized)  USB powered Unix computers that only cost a few tens of pounds and are hugely flexible. (But you can use any computer like a PC, Mac and many NAS) I connect this server to my home network via switch. My Naim streamer is also of course connected to my home network. When I run the BubbleUPnP Server software it discovers the renderers on my home network, and it discovers my NDX... and configures itself to work with the NDX. Then I need to run a control app... you can’t use the Naim app to control BubbleUPnP. I use a free app called LUMIN on my iPad. This can control your NAS UPnP Server (if you want) as well as Tidal and Qobuz.. you simply enter your account details like you do with the Naim app.

Once you do this you navigate Qobuz, Tidal or even your NAS UPnP via the LUMIN control app. Playlists are created such an album or discrete tracks just like the Naim app... but the list not stored on the Naim renderer but on the BubbleUPnP Server... this allows multiple iPads to add and control your Naim streamer.

Architecturally the Bubble Server is effectively interfacing between the external web streaming service and your home network, and presents the media data to your Naim streamer in a manner that is identical to locally streamed media from your NAS... this appears to be the key bit to transform the SQ of these web services on the Naim streamers.

gert posted:

Tidal is supported natively by the naim app. Why do you want to stream it via BubbleUPnP?

The only advantage could be if you let BubbleUPnPServer transcode the flac stream to wav on the fly. This does sound better at least with the older unitis IMHO.

Cos Simon Says ... ????

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Solid Air posted:

Thanks Simon - That's very interesting, thank you. Would you mind explaining the architecture a bit? What device runs Bubble UPNP and how is it attached to the Naim streamer? And also, how do you control it (eg Naim app or something else?) 

I've long felt the future was cloud streaming, but haven't made the leap yet. I'm interested in how you're doing it.

Thanks!

Hi SA, I run the BubbleUPnP Server on a RaspberryPi.. these are little (kitchen match box sized)  USB powered Unix computers that only cost a few tens of pounds and are hugely flexible. (But you can use any computer like a PC, Mac and many NAS) I connect this server to my home network via switch. My Naim streamer is also of course connected to my home network. When I run the BubbleUPnP Server software it discovers the renderers on my home network, and it discovers my NDX... and configures itself to work with the NDX. Then I need to run a control app... you can’t use the Naim app to control BubbleUPnP. I use a free app called LUMIN on my iPad. This can control your NAS UPnP Server (if you want) as well as Tidal and Qobuz.. you simply enter your account details like you do with the Naim app.

Once you do this you navigate Qobuz, Tidal or even your NAS UPnP via the LUMIN control app. Playlists are created such an album or discrete tracks just like the Naim app... but the list not stored on the Naim renderer but on the BubbleUPnP Server... this allows multiple iPads to add and control your Naim streamer.

Architecturally the Bubble Server is effectively interfacing between the external web streaming service and your home network, and presents the media data to your Naim streamer in a manner that is identical to locally streamed media from your NAS... this appears to be the key bit to transform the SQ of these web services on the Naim streamers.

Hi Simon, thanks for sharing this. I have also effectively stopped using Tidal once I managed to stream Qobuz to my NDX. Couple of questions:

1. I use mconnect control app with NDX as end point. I guess this is not employing the “proxy” architecture mentioned above. Have you compared SQ between your setup with BubbleUPNP server as proxy and the “direct” method using just mconnect?

2. A key feature of Qobuz which not all control apps can take advantage of are the album booklets. For classical music in particular, this is a real advantage. Mconnect cannot retrieve the booklets but on Qobuz’s Info page about compatible players it lists BubbleUPNP as able to do so. I guess you are using an iOS control device and not an Android device able to run BubbkeUpnp as controll app so you cannot access the booklets from the control app, is that the case?

thanks in advance 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

gert posted:

Tidal is supported natively by the naim app. Why do you want to stream it via BubbleUPnP?

The only advantage could be if you let BubbleUPnPServer transcode the flac stream to wav on the fly. This does sound better at least with the older unitis IMHO.

Get, I think you have missed the whole point of my thread, the point in using BubbleUPnP Server is to create a streaming proxy server.. so external internet streaming is identical as far as the streamer is concerned as local NAS streaming... the inter frame timing consistency and optimal TCP operation are the same... this has a huge difference on SQ.. certainly on the classic streamers... effectively Qobuz and NAS streaming becomes identical

Ok. But as the classic streamers do not support qobuz without any kind of proxy (like Bubble, LSM or another client app) it is the question how they would sound without the proxy regarding the TCP operations. So it really is interesting if tidal streaming would benefit from the BubbleUPnPServer.

"When I run the BubbleUPnP Server software it discovers the renderers on my home network, and it discovers my NDX... and configures itself to work with the NDX."

But do not forget to check the checkbox for setting up the openhome proxy for the renderer in BubbleUPnPServer.

Greetings
Gert

So must I use a computer or RPI, or is Bubble to Tidal or Qobuz the same effect?

Obsydian posted:

So must I use a computer or RPI, or is Bubble to Tidal or Qobuz the same effect?

I do not understand the second part of the question. But if you already a NAS in your network this might be good enough to run BubbleUPnPSever (BUS). I am using a Synology DS418play. BUS is really running fine on this. On my older DS213+ it was annoyingly slow, probably because it does not have enough RAM for all the services that were running.

[@mention:32963504873841469] - I run Qobuz via BubbleUPnP on my Synology, and recently compared the sound with the mconnect app. The latter was clearly inferior.

Hi Simon, I believe I have now replicated your set-up having installed BubbleUPnPServer alongside Asset on my QNAP and have Qobuz HiFi on a months trial, retaining Tidal for the time being and using LUMIN (and Kazoo) control app.

Within BubbleUPnPServer, I created proxys (or is that proxies?) for Asset, QNAP and Naim (I have a UnitiServe) UPnPs, though I tend to use the Asset proxy as I believe it sounds very slightly better. I also feel the QNAP sounds slightly better than the UnitiServe as a Server. I assume that the Asset proxy version of the server software is in fact Bubble borrowing the Asset UI, or is that wrong? I also transcode Flac to WAV within Asset as I use an NDS for streaming and have always felt WAV sounds best.

Anyway, using the Asset proxy I am sure I have noticed a very decent uplift in SQ for not only external Qobuz and Tidal streaming but also, to a lesser degree, local streaming from the QNAP. Greater separation and definition of instruments and vocals, put simply greater clarity and texture.

Assuming my mind is not playing tricks on me, as the addition of server software (Bubble) is the only change I have made, is the explanation as you suggested before that I am now effectively streaming Qobuz (and Tidal) locally, avoiding some level of external processing? If this is a possible explanation for the improvement in external streaming, then why am I also hearing an improvement in local streaming from the QNAP? Is BubbleUPNP server software simply superior or is there another explanation?

Full fat Qobuz does sound slightly better than Tidal HiFi but the only drawback is that Qobuz has occasionally failed to find an album I sought where Tidal succeeded. On balance though, I think I will be moving to Qobuz.

Whatever is going on, I am grateful to you for bringing this free tweak to my attention.

Nigel, glad you got it sorted.. yes you might have found the inter frame timing effect on SQ... which, at least in part, I have correlated with a test harness I setup with differing SQ against differeing inter frame timing consistency and this is why I believe different UPnP media servers/platforms can sound different.. and indeed why a local proxy sounds prefereable to web streaming.  I have also measured the relative differences between MinimServer and Asset on a RPi and ReadyDLNA running on a NetgearNAS (ReadyDLNA on the Netgear sounds best and has the most consistent timing.. albeit the effect is relatively subtle)... I have found with off board DAC these differences trump WAV vs FLAC.... to the extent I don’t bother transcoding now.

of course with LUMIN you can set tracks to play seamlessly from NAS and web streaming... and when using a proxy it is just not possible for me to differentiate the source (NAS and Qobuz) ... and I just tried again before I typed this listening to Jooles Holland album ‘Piano’

gert posted:

Obsydian posted:

So must I use a computer or RPI, or is Bubble to Tidal or Qobuz the same effect?

I do not understand the second part of the question. But if you already a NAS in your network this might be good enough to run BubbleUPnPSever (BUS). I am using a Synology DS418play. BUS is really running fine on this. On my older DS213+ it was annoyingly slow, probably because it does not have enough RAM for all the services that were running.

Very, I have no NAS, just Tidal ???? to Naim streamer.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Nigel, glad you got it sorted.. yes you might have found the inter frame timing effect on SQ... which, at least in part, I have correlated with a test harness I setup with differing SQ against differeing inter frame timing consistency and this is why I believe different UPnP media servers/platforms can sound different.. and indeed why a local proxy sounds prefereable to web streaming.  I have also measured the relative differences between MinimServer and Asset on a RPi and ReadyDLNA running on a NetgearNAS (ReadyDLNA on the Netgear sounds best and has the most consistent timing.. albeit the effect is relatively subtle)... I have found with off board DAC these differences trump WAV vs FLAC.... to the extent I don’t bother transcoding now.

of course with LUMIN you can set tracks to play seamlessly from NAS and web streaming... and when using a proxy it is just not possible for me to differentiate the source (NAS and Qobuz) ... and I just tried again before I typed this listening to Jooles Holland album ‘Piano’

if i understood well, to stream qobuz with a naim streamer, you need something like raspberry pi connected in usb to a pc or mac.  So the pc must be switched on?    without a computer opened, it is not possible?

No. I run BubbleUPnP from my Synology NAS.

Nick Lees posted:

No. I run BubbleUPnP from my Synology NAS.

i have no nas, just unitserve.  So i would need to have a pc switched on?

French Rooster posted:

if i understood well, to stream qobuz with a naim streamer, you need something like raspberry pi connected in usb to a pc or mac.  So the pc must be switched on?    without a computer opened, it is not possible?

Yes, you need any kind of computer. This can be a NAS (that is a computer, too) or any other type of computer that is able to run java. Because BUS is routing the stream from qobuz to your streamer, the computer needs to stay turned on while playing music.

This streaming lark is complicated ????