Qobuz streaming tipping point

Thanks Nigel. I have managed it now after some problems getting the app to connect to the internet to do with router ports. Sorted now but it’s hardly intuitive.

A quick question for you and Simon if I may, should I now be seeing BubbleUPnP as a music server on the Naim and LUMIN apps? I can see Minim and my Unitiserve but not BubbleUPnP. I had to rush out after fixing the internet connection issue so I suppose it might be there when I return.

The Naim App doesn't see Bubble as a server, but Lumin or Kazoo do.

Thanks Nick. So I should see it in the Music Library section on Lumin?

Yes indeed (and Kazoo - you might get the drift that I prefer Kazoo )

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hi SA, I run the BubbleUPnP Server on a RaspberryPi.. these are little (kitchen match box sized)  USB powered Unix computers that only cost a few tens of pounds and are hugely flexible. (But you can use any computer like a PC, Mac and many NAS)

I connect this server to my home network via switch. My Naim streamer is also of course connected to my home network. When I run the BubbleUPnP Server software it discovers the renderers on my home network, and it discovers my NDX... and configures itself to work with the NDX. Then I need to run a control app... you can’t use the Naim app to control BubbleUPnP. I use a free app called LUMIN on my iPad. This can control your NAS UPnP Server (if you want) as well as Tidal and Qobuz.. you simply enter your account details like you do with the Naim app.

Once you do this you navigate Qobuz, Tidal or even your NAS UPnP via the LUMIN control app. Playlists are created such an album or discrete tracks just like the Naim app... but the list not stored on the Naim renderer but on the BubbleUPnP Server... this allows multiple iPads to add and control your Naim streamer.

Architecturally the Bubble Server is effectively interfacing between the external web streaming service and your home network, and presents the media data to your Naim streamer in a manner that is identical to locally streamed media from your NAS... this appears to be the key bit to transform the SQ of these web services on the Naim streamers.

Hi Simon,

The architecture of this setup looks very much like that of the Roon ecosystem (Core, Roon RAAT, control point).

Have you had a chance to compare the two?

Thanks,

Jan

Camlan posted:

A quick question for you and Simon if I may, should I now be seeing BubbleUPnP as a music server on the Naim and LUMIN apps? I can see Minim and my Unitiserve but not BubbleUPnP. I had to rush out after fixing the internet connection issue so I suppose it might be there when I return.

If you set the checkboxes "Create a proxy Media Server on this LAN" in BubbleUPnPServer for your "Media Servers", you can see the proxy in your naim app, too. They are naimed like the original media servers but with an additional title prefix or postfix. I cannot remember what it is like.

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hi SA, I run the BubbleUPnP Server on a RaspberryPi.. these are little (kitchen match box sized)  USB powered Unix computers that only cost a few tens of pounds and are hugely flexible. (But you can use any computer like a PC, Mac and many NAS)

I connect this server to my home network via switch. My Naim streamer is also of course connected to my home network. When I run the BubbleUPnP Server software it discovers the renderers on my home network, and it discovers my NDX... and configures itself to work with the NDX. Then I need to run a control app... you can’t use the Naim app to control BubbleUPnP. I use a free app called LUMIN on my iPad. This can control your NAS UPnP Server (if you want) as well as Tidal and Qobuz.. you simply enter your account details like you do with the Naim app.

Once you do this you navigate Qobuz, Tidal or even your NAS UPnP via the LUMIN control app. Playlists are created such an album or discrete tracks just like the Naim app... but the list not stored on the Naim renderer but on the BubbleUPnP Server... this allows multiple iPads to add and control your Naim streamer.

Architecturally the Bubble Server is effectively interfacing between the external web streaming service and your home network, and presents the media data to your Naim streamer in a manner that is identical to locally streamed media from your NAS... this appears to be the key bit to transform the SQ of these web services on the Naim streamers.

Hi Simon,

The architecture of this setup looks very much like that of the Roon ecosystem (Core, Roon RAAT, control point).

Have you had a chance to compare the two?

Thanks,

Jan

This was my thinking. Perhaps why Tidal sounds different via Naim app to Roon Tidal.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

 

As far as FFMPEG for transcoding you need to compile and link the latest version of FFMPEG (Minimstreamer can use older versions), as well compile and link a version of LAME (the MP3 encoder)... there are instructions on the BubbleSoft web site.

Hi Simon,

on the bubble website under "Install ffmpeg binaries with Optware-ng" I was able to do the first 2 steps and I have installed ffmpeg via the Synology community store (as it is not listed in the normal Synology app strore) also I have installed the logitec media server - that's what you meant with LAME, right? Do I have to use LAME instead of the Minim then?  

It is still not possible to enter the BubbleUPnP Audio decoding. 

Nick Lees posted:

[@mention:32963504873841469] - I run Qobuz via BubbleUPnP on my Synology, and recently compared the sound with the mconnect app. The latter was clearly inferior.

Hi [@mention:1566878603949164], as you are running Bubble via Synology - did you manage to get the Bubble audio decoding running? 

DL_Audio posted:

Nick Lees posted:

[@mention:32963504873841469] - I run Qobuz via BubbleUPnP on my Synology, and recently compared the sound with the mconnect app. The latter was clearly inferior.

Hi [@mention:1566878603949164], as you are running Bubble via Synology - did you manage to get the Bubble audio decoding running? 

You can check the logfile from BubbleUPnPServer. It tells you if ffmpeg was found or not. It is looking for the ffmpeg alternative in /opt/bin/.  After installing ffmpeg you need to restart the Bubble Server.

If the opt-installation directory is somwhere else, you can set a symbolic link to the real destination. E.g. I have installed the optware into /volume1/opt/. So I need a symlink that is pointing from /opt to /volume1/opt/.

To create a symlink you have to log into your NAS via ssh (or e.g. putty on windows) "ssh admin@yournas", then become root via "sudo -i" (with the same admin password) and then create the symlink via:

ln -s /volume1/opt /opt

The problem: After a firmware update the symlink is missing again. So I have to recreate it after updating the NAS.

Greetings
Gert

DL_Audio posted:

Nick Lees posted:

[@mention:32963504873841469] - I run Qobuz via BubbleUPnP on my Synology, and recently compared the sound with the mconnect app. The latter was clearly inferior.

Hi [@mention:1566878603949164], as you are running Bubble via Synology - did you manage to get the Bubble audio decoding running? 

Hi. Sorry for the delay - watching England football and cricket! 

To answer: no, I haven’t tried - I just run FLAC.

What a game... 6-1... anyway Jan. no I haven’t tried Roon.. not keen on its pricing... BubbleUPnPServer is currently free.

DL-Audio... when you compile and link FFMPEG.. you need to have first compiled and link LAME.. this is a free MP3 encoder. I have not bothered, so I can’t confirm it definitely works.. as I have found transcoding only of marginal if any benefit on my setup.

Camlan posted:

Thanks Nigel. I have managed it now after some problems getting the app to connect to the internet to do with router ports. Sorted now but it’s hardly intuitive.

A quick question for you and Simon if I may, should I now be seeing BubbleUPnP as a music server on the Naim and LUMIN apps? I can see Minim and my Unitiserve but not BubbleUPnP. I had to rush out after fixing the internet connection issue so I suppose it might be there when I return.

Through the Naim, LUMIN and Kazoo control apps I see both the original and proxy versions of Asset, QNAP and Naim UPnP servers, but not Bubble. My understanding is that Bubble creates proxy versions of the UPnP server software you happen to have installed wherever on your network but does not show itself (Bubble) as a UPnP server.

SiS can probably explain in detail.

Hi NigelB,

the proxy version *is* Bubble.

gert posted:

Hi NigelB,

the proxy version *is* Bubble.

Thanks Gert. I believed this to be the case. I thought however Camlan was expecting to see the Bubble logo in his UPnP server listing.

No I still can’t see it but I am streaming Qobuz no problem at present and very good it is as well. From what you are saying I need to create proxy versions of Minim and Unitiserve?

No you don’t need to create proxy versions of anything, the software does that once you tell it what to do... if BubbleUPnPServer is installed and run on your home network it will discover UPnP servers and renderers that you can then select using the BubbleUPnP Server portal and control using LUMIN or equivalent. It’s all easier done than said.... but importantly, and possibly confusingly, BubbleUPnPServer is NOT a UPnP media server.... so it will not be discovered by UPnP control points such as the Naim app.

Camlan posted:

No I still can’t see it but I am streaming Qobuz no problem at present and very good it is as well. From what you are saying I need to create proxy versions of Minim and Unitiserve?

Indeed Camlan. I had to open Bubble in my QNAP and instruct it to create a proxy for each UPnP server I have. From memory it was a simple checkbox.

Yes Simon and Nigel. I can see the tick box to set up the proxy servers and I will action. Got to say that with the LUMIN app this is almost as good as integration. I will keep enjoying the free trial but if it continues as now I think I will go for Qobuz hi res streaming and ditch Tidal. 

Thanks a lot for the heads up on this.

I would like to sum up:

You can create a proxy for a media server in your LAN. But you do not need this for streaming qobuz. It is only useful, if you e.g. have discovery problems with your media server or other compatibility problems. If a proxy is created, it itself does not store any music, as Simon already said. The proxy offers the content of the media server and simply hands it through.

For streaming from qobuz via lumin or kazoo app you only have to check the checkbox to create a "openhome" proxy for your renderer (your streamer). The result is that the BubbleUPnPServer holds the playlist that is controlled by the lumin/kazoo apps. The BubbleUPnPServer then tells your streamer which track to play.

Thanks Gert, understood.

Just sitting here listening to Allan Taylor on the Qobuz 1 month 16/44 trial on BubbleUPnP loaded on my QNAP NAS and played through the LUMIN App.

Simon is right, this is seriously impressive, much better than Tidal. I can feel Sublime+ coming on. Threads such as this are what makes this forum so worthwhile.

gert posted: 

You can check the logfile from BubbleUPnPServer. It tells you if ffmpeg was found or not. It is looking for the ffmpeg alternative in /opt/bin/.  After installing ffmpeg you need to restart the Bubble Server.

If the opt-installation directory is somwhere else, you can set a symbolic link to the real destination. E.g. I have installed the optware into /volume1/opt/. So I need a symlink that is pointing from /opt to /volume1/opt/.

To create a symlink you have to log into your NAS via ssh (or e.g. putty on windows) "ssh admin@yournas", then become root via "sudo -i" (with the same admin password) and then create the symlink via:

ln -s /volume1/opt /opt

The problem: After a firmware update the symlink is missing again. So I have to recreate it after updating the NAS.

Greetings
Gert

[@mention:18461704845049549]

Update: My ssh client tells me:

Package lame (3.99.5-3) installed in /opt/ is up to date. Package ffmpeg (3.4-4) installed in /opt/ is up to date.

So this does not look too bad, doesn't it? Any ideas what is left to do, to make it work? Many thanks!

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Nbpf... you are right about Openhome casting of a renderer, but the functionality I am talking about and mainly referring to in this thread is the proxy function for external services which BubbleUPnP Server provides ... which acts as a protocol break and a kind of buffer... key to the SQ improvements in my opinion and also helps reduce dropouts.... just look at the source destination addresses of the media transfers in the log or with Wireshark and you’ll see what I mean.

I see but BubbleUPnP Server allows to "Create a proxy Media Server on this LAN" for every UPnP/DLNA server on the LAN. I have 6 of them, included the one associated with the upmpdcli interface that provides access to Qobuz. Thus, the question is whether it makes sense to create a proxy for every UPnP/DLNA server or only for those used to access Qobuz, Tidal, etc. Thanks, nbpf

If you can execute the command

/opt/bin/ffmpeg --version

ffmpeg should be installed ok.

So activate and check the bubble upnp server logfile. Maybe this helps. (Search for "ffmpeg".)

You did restart the bubble upnp server after installing ffmpeg?