Do I really have to buy new speaker cables?

NickSeattle posted:

 

Whether anyone can hear the difference if cables are different lengths is a separate question — I cannot attest from experience.  I’ll bet I could not. 

 

Many years ago I had a setup where the speaker cables were different lengths - and it sounded bad.  Replaced with cables of the same length and it was fine.  I'm afraid that this was so long ago (1974, I think) that I can't remember just what was wrong with the sound, but it was very noticeable, and I thought something was wrong with the amp or something.

If you can, I would avoid either having anything between the speakers and definitely would not recommend splicing or soldering the cables. Your old cables would probably sell for a reasonable price to offset the cost of the new one - which you may even be able to find second hand.

Meerkat posted:

Moved house recently and intend having a dedicated music room, but the problem I have, is that one of my 'Tellurium Black' 3 metre speaker cables is 0.75m too short for my set up. I am informed that it's not good to have one speaker cable longer than the other. At about £58 per metre, I didn't really want to pay out on two new cables. So, the work around would be to locate the rack in between the speakers, that way they'd be long enough.

Looking at 100's of 'System Pics', loads of people place their rack/TV in between their speakers. 

The set up has the speakers 210cm apart, moving them closer would may solve the speaker cable issue, but could impact the sound.

Any ideas please guys?

Thanks

 

Well, I think joining the speakers wires is a no. Spending another £400 or so, on good cable will compliment the new system, considering the cost of the black boxes I intend having!

The bit I do not understand, is if I don't put the rack in between the speakers, but place it by one of the side walls, the rack will still be about 1 metre from either the left or right speaker!

Perhaps I should move again

MEERKAT: all you can realistically do is out your system where it's best for you. Unless you have huge house you are not alone with having to make compromises. 

Get your system running and enjoy the music ????

Hmack posted:

I have never understood why some people feel that it is inadvisable to have their hi-fi rack placed between their speakers. I am not convinced that this adversely affects the sound.

Even What Hi-Fi magazine, although What Hi-Fi magazine is not, obviously, any serious authority in the area of Hi-Fi, cared to mention, that one should avoid placing their hi-fi rack between speakers so no to spoil the soundstage. I do not believe this.

If you don't have a TT, it probably matters a lot less.

I am constrained to having my system between the speakers. I had to hang pictures on the wall behind the speakers to break up standing waves which could get strong enough, at high volumes, to send my tonearm bouncing across a record. 

The blanket test looks really interesting. I'll have to try that.

Can you run your wires under the floor?

do what you can, do what you want,  but don’t do what you can’t,  ......i guess it will help a lot! 

Dazan posted:

Hmack posted:

I have never understood why some people feel that it is inadvisable to have their hi-fi rack placed between their speakers. I am not convinced that this adversely affects the sound.

Even What Hi-Fi magazine, although What Hi-Fi magazine is not, obviously, any serious authority in the area of Hi-Fi, cared to mention, that one should avoid placing their hi-fi rack between speakers so no to spoil the soundstage. I do not believe this.

It's not a matter of belief. Simply try it out. I once had a bookcase between my speakers. Removing it made a significant positive difference.

JRHardee posted:

The blanket test looks really interesting. I'll have to try that.

Can you run your wires under the floor?

JRHardee...A John Lewis blanket, or would an M&S one do?

Concrete floors, so not an option.

Meerkat posted:

JRHardee posted:

The blanket test looks really interesting. I'll have to try that.

Can you run your wires under the floor?

JRHardee...A John Lewis blanket, or would an M&S one do?

Concrete floors, so not an option.

 

A TQ blanket is best....

Dazan posted:

Hmack posted:

I have never understood why some people feel that it is inadvisable to have their hi-fi rack placed between their speakers. I am not convinced that this adversely affects the sound.

Even What Hi-Fi magazine, although What Hi-Fi magazine is not, obviously, any serious authority in the area of Hi-Fi, cared to mention, that one should avoid placing their hi-fi rack between speakers so no to spoil the soundstage. I do not believe this.

???? Hmack,..Dazan,....This is a very,very old knowledge,...????NOTHING???? between the speakers.Neither TV,TV-bench or your music system.

The speakers must be given the opportunity to interact with each other and the room,if you put something big between the speakers,so you have minimized that possibility.

Should you have your TV between the speakers,..then put it up on the wall,where it makes the least damage.
It is very easy to demonstrate the difference in soundquality.I did it last weekend at a friend's friend.

He was 27 years old and had bought his first music system....Naim Atom,Linn Majik 109 speaker and Naim Naca5.
He had a TV-bench between the speakers,it was 1,5m long...and on that bench was his TV.

The only thing we did was to lift off his TV from the bench,..the TV-bench was left standing.
He has never listened to better music systems, but he immediately heard the difference for the better.

Everyone can hear this,....especially if you have been "Attention To Detail" when you have installed your music system.
◾One more thing,....not a music system in any corner either...at least 60-70 cm from the corner.

This is just as obvious,if you are serious about your installation.

/Peder ????

Peder posted:

"Hmack,..Dazan,....This is a very,very old knowledge,...????NOTHING???? between the speakers.Neither TV,TV-bench or your music system".

Peder, it's certainly a theory or a supposition, but I would argue that it is not 'knowledge', old or new.

I have been around and around hi-fi for a very long time and fashions come and go. I remember the days when most hi-fi critics would argue blind that it was a disaster to locate more than one pair of speakers in a listening room. Even the presence of a telephone with it's internal speaker was enough to destroy the sound of ones hi-fi system. I did test this out at the time it was a fashion and found that the presence of a second set of speakers (let alone a telephone) in my particular room and setup had absolutely no impact (to my ears) on sound quality.

I won't bore you by listing a whole range of 'suppositions' that have over the years been temporarily taken to be 'knowledge'.

I have 3 audio systems, 2 of which have the hi-fi rack situated between the speakers, the other to the side of one of the speakers. This is governed by practicality rather than belief that positioning will make a significant difference one way or the other.

Almost all of us who have a passion for music and hi-fi systems in particular have a love of noodling or tinkering with our systems (I have been, and still am occasionally as guilty as anyone), and we all have different interpretations of how our systems sound and how significant any changes to our systems are interpreted as being.

Take any Naim system for example. This system is going to sound pretty amazing almost straight out of the box. However, some will tell you that:

A) running in for weeks on end transforms the sound of the system, then  B) placing the Naim kit on a 'Fraim' will further transform the sound out of all recognition, then C) moving the rack from between to outside the speakers produces astonishing results, then D) dressing the cabling properly has to be heard to be believed, then E) that super duper ethernet cable is a must, and on and on.

Now, I won't argue that there are no benefits to be had from tinkering with one's system, nor indeed from some of the above, but if you believed every sensational claim about transformational changes, then you must agree that the original Naim system must have sounded dreadful to begin with if it was capable of being transformed again and again by so many 'small' changes. That would almost certainly be far from the case.

^^^^^^^^^ wise words ^^^^^^^^^^^^

personally, in my room, i first had all my hifi gear between the speakers.  When i removed all and left an empty space between the speakers, the sound improved very noticeably.   For me it was an evidence.

But i can’t say if it will be the case in all situations, systems or rooms....

Good points HMACK,when I used NACA5 in my system,the rack was outside the speakers,because I had 7 meter long cables.When I decided to switch to Superlumina,my choice was to buy 3 meter length cables,and move the rack between the speakers,or spend another 2,000 dollars on 5 m long Superlumina.I moved the rack,and bought 3 meter Superlumina...sounds fantastic.The thing is with my room,I have my speakers around 5 feet from the front wall,so the rack is behind them by about 3 feet,and off to one side.There is nothing physically between the speakers to break up the soundstage,so this should be ok I would think.What is it we are trying to avoid here,vibrations from the speakers affecting the rack,or breaking up the soundstage with a physical object?

???? HMACK,....It's late now,and it's been 34 degrees C, in the shade all day....so I feel a little tired in the head ????.

Therefore,I will answer you at a later time,.I will respond to everything you have written.
But I read from your response,that some experiences we share,.....some differ significantly.

I repeat,..what I wrote in my previous post IS a very well known knowledge,...which can also be explained purely acoustically.

What I wrote in my last post is the actual relationship,..So it works practically.
Which also some has confirmed here in the thread,..now the latest "French Rooster".

But for me it is not important what you can do with measuring equipment,..I listen,.... better-worse.....As Simply as That.

I see that you have a Linn product,then you probably knows about Linn's evaluation method Tune-Dem. By far the best in evaluating and music-system installations.

That said,everything I wrote in my previous post is correct,....was "openminded" and dare to try,...as with "French Rooster".. You will be amazed at the outcome.

Hmack,.. I say like Arnold..."I'll be back" ????.

/Peder

wenger2015 posted:

Agree with HMACK and Finkfan, safe yourself some money and enjoy the music 

Fantastic looking set up wenger2015????

No quarter posted:

I have my speakers around 5 feet from the front wall,so the rack is behind them by about 3 feet,and off to one side.There is nothing physically between the speakers to break up the soundstage,so this should be ok I would think.

 

 

 

 

 

I wish I could have my speakers 5 feet from the wall, with the rack behind. A great set up.????

Mike1951 posted:

Try this: put on your favourite piece of demo music and set the volume level. 

Listen. 

Get a blanket or duvet, cover up the stack.

Listen again. 

For those not constrained with rack placement, I'd say you don't even have to bother with the blanket. Set the volume as said. Now stick your head between the speakers (where your rack would be) and absorb the bass energy there, same as your gear does. Now move about the room to alternative rack locations (back wall, side wall, etc.), stick your head there, and evaluate the bass energy. Likely far less, barring corners. These 'far less' bass energy locations along walls should identify suitable rack locations where the gear will be subject to reduced microphony. Regardless of rack quality, I'd want to situate my gear here and would pay for the extra speaker cable to do so.

joerand...For those not constrained with rack placement, I'd say you don't even have to bother with the blanket. Set the volume as said. Now stick your head between the speakers (where your rack would be) and absorb the bass energy there, same as your gear does. Now move about the room to alternative rack locations (back wall, side wall, etc.), stick your head there, and evaluate the bass energy. Likely far less, barring corners. These 'far less' bass energy locations along walls should identify suitable rack locations where the gear will be subject to reduced microphony. Regardless of rack quality, I'd want to situate my gear here and would pay for the extra speaker cable to do so.

What a bloody good idea! 

I have absolutely no idea, but Is rack/speaker placement just all about 'bass energy', or are there other factors?

I actually have the choice of two rooms, but in each room there are slight complications. For instance, in one room, If I pull the speakers away from the wall, (I have Spendor A5's, which will be replaced later) then they are a bit too close to the 'hot seat'.

Do you mind me asking joerand, what's the distance between your speakers, then speaker to your 'hot seat'?

Regards

I am in a similar dilema .......... have moved room and have placed rack to one side of speakers ......... everything works electrically/sonically..... but it looks hideous all you see when you walk in the room is a face full of rack - a shrine to Naim - very man cave - her indoors is not pleased and to be honest I don't think it is great.  I have found an alternative position - which will look much more discrete - and satisfy room aesthetics ......... big problem my super lumina 3m speaker cables will not reach..........and I will have to use my 6m matched pair of old NACa5 .......... doh. Currently I have not switched on .... the unsightly setup .. I am thinking that is best not to hear the system with super lumina and just relocate and connect up with my trusty NACa5 ..... and rely on the newness of the room to mask the cable downgrade....agonizing times...........

Richieroo posted:

I am in a similar dilema .......... have moved room and have placed rack to one side of speakers ......... everything works electrically/sonically..... but it looks hideous all you see when you walk in the room is a face full of rack - a shrine to Naim - very man cave - her indoors is not pleased and to be honest I don't think it is great.  I have found an alternative position - which will look much more discrete - and satisfy room aesthetics ......... big problem my super lumina 3m speaker cables will not reach..........and I will have to use my 6m matched pair of old NACa5 .......... doh. Currently I have not switched on .... the unsightly setup .. I am thinking that is best not to hear the system with super lumina and just relocate and connect up with my trusty NACa5 ..... and rely on the newness of the room to mask the cable downgrade....agonizing times...........

I guess with a different room, you never know, the NACA5 may sound better than previously.

Looking at the 'System Pics" (I'm now looking back at the 2013 one's) Some guys have three FRAIMS, jam packed with black boxes. Yes, they are a face full of rack, but they look absolutely fantastic!????

We, like many others, will have to make some kind of compromise with the set up. As some have mentioned, if it's worth doing, then do it right. This may include selling the old cable, and buying new cable. This may be an opportunity for me to demo some 'Phantom' Speaker Cable...

What size room do you have, and how far apart are/were your speakers?

Thanks

Hi my original setup was unusual -  I am going from a very small office to a room that is 20% bigger now ........ 2.65 x 3.45 it is still small - but hugely better - before I had my speakers on my desk on mini stands - and listen primarily close ........ like a studio. Now I have the same speakers but they will be on dedicated pmc stands .... well away from side walls ..... it is a proper small listening room - small couch/rug to floor ... ceiling is vaulted so standing waves are reduced. With a hand clap - the room is allot less lively ...... I am hoping - it should sound pretty good. The last room was 20% smaller - and even with unfavorable desk mounting - the speakers sounded fantastic ........ so we will see. I will report back. My system is not on a fraim - but on a single stack an Atacama evoque se ..... I am delighted with it.

To save worrying too much in advance of getting the kit...

Once you've decided on the actual system and got it home, get the dealer to loan you a couple of lengths of A5 or TQ and then you can experiment with equipment placement and work out which configuration works best for you and the new room. When happy, determine what lengths you need and either use what you have (if the length works) or flog it and buy new cables.

Sit back and enjoy your new system for many years to come

Peder posted:

???? HMACK,....It's late now,and it's been 34 degrees C, in the shade all day....so I feel a little tired in the head ????.

Therefore,I will answer you at a later time,.I will respond to everything you have written.
But I read from your response,that some experiences we share,.....some differ significantly.

I repeat,..what I wrote in my previous post IS a very well known knowledge,...which can also be explained purely acoustically.

What I wrote in my last post is the actual relationship,..So it works practically.
Which also some has confirmed here in the thread,..now the latest "French Rooster".

But for me it is not important what you can do with measuring equipment,..I listen,.... better-worse.....As Simply as That.

I see that you have a Linn product,then you probably knows about Linn's evaluation method Tune-Dem. By far the best in evaluating and music-system installations.

That said,everything I wrote in my previous post is correct,....was "openminded" and dare to try,...as with "French Rooster".. You will be amazed at the outcome.

Hmack,.. I say like Arnold..."I'll be back" ????.

/Peder

Peder, I'm not arguing that moving your hifi rack from between your speakers to a different location won't have any impact whatsoever on sound quality.

What I am suggesting is that A) results will almost certainly vary from system to system and in particular from room to room and that B) results are much more likely to be very subtle as opposed to transformational.

A system change of this sort is also a relatively difficult and time-consuming system change to test in any meaningful way. Even if your room and system cabling will allow you to carry out a test, it will take some considerable time and effort to make what may end up being a very temporary change. You then have the obstacles of  unreliable 'audio memory' and psychology to contend with, not to mention the possibility that subtle variations in sound quality are often experienced over the course of a typical day without any system changes. I find that my system can sound slightly 'different' at different times of the day - do you not find this with your own system? Finally, whilst for some people, very subtle changes can be perceived as being transformational, and there might be no good reason not to tinker indefinitely with one's system (after all this can be fun for a lot of us), for most there will be other factors to take into account that will supersede the potential subtle benefits of system changes of this sort.     

I certainly have no axe to grind with those who wish to tinker in this way, and if you have the time to spare then why not? But these days I find that practical considerations have become more important and I prefer not to worry about potential subtle improvements unless they are relatively straightforward to test and implement.