What's the most important component of any system, most say Source, some say Preamplifier, or even Speakers?

gary yeowell posted:

There is something rather special about the CDS3 and a Nait, be it 1, 2, 5, XS or SN, and i've lived very happily with all of them.

I can vouch for CDS3 into NAIT XS. Glorious.

Good to see you back, Gary.

C.

I have a full on 500 DR system.   The weakest link by far is the pair of ProAc D40R speakers.   I am loath to change a thing because they sound so good together.   With the CD555 and Verdier with Superline-SupercapDR, I have had the 552, 300, 500, 500DR, and 552DR as my progression on these speakers and have had to damp the ProAc bottom firing bass with Herbie's footers.   I keep looking for speakers but have found nothing to pull the trigger on, and the transaction cost is high for swapping speakers, unlike swapping Naim electronics.

In the 80's I was a customer of Rudling/Mether (that Peder mentioned) and I still see the setup (shelves etc) and (secondary) the hierarchy as most important. Start with what you've got and make sure it performs before you  spend more money.

Last year I reduced box-count and dropped vinyl, 252 etc and moved to 272/555DR/300DR. I simply no longer need an old-style general purpose preamp. I only have two digital sources (a Core with streamed albums and an AppleTV+reclocker). When used with digital sources I dont think the 272/555DR limit the musical performance much compared to 252/SC but it is hard to compare - the 272 is integrated and needs less cables and so on.  That said whenever Naim provide an upgrade to the 272 I will be interested, but I'm in no hurry. 

My criteria for speakers was 1) no more gasket kits and 2) work at low listening levels (living in a flat, late-night listening).

My SL2 was the icing on the cake. Imo sorce but I felt the nac 52 was the heart of the system but then when I went from a nap180 to 135 I was just smacked around the room. Then the the phased mana just let it all hang out. Balanced system comes to mind. This is why Naim do what they do, makes it so easy because it’s been done before. Buy the best you can at the time, it will save you money in the long run.

Derelict posted:

Get a good source and amp, you'll hear improvements (when) you upgrade the speakers.

Get good speakers, you'll hear improvements (when) you upgrade the source and amp.

I like this response because it's objective, logical, and not based on some silly rule of thumb, hierarchy, or easy cookbook recipe.

Build a system however you wish. Spend where you rationalize. Bottom line IME is that the room/speaker/listener's ear interaction is the most critical component and involves a lot of effort to get right. Lugging speakers from dealer to home and back to dealer isn't fun. Throwing bucks at a posh box upgrade involves mostly the wallet, and there are plenty of deep ones from listeners here. I suspect many folks here have done more black box changes than speaker changes in their rooms, so of course they'd advise a source or amp as being more critical. I've had more than a dozen speakers home before finding the one that gelled with my room and ears. Same source(s) throughout.

I think an overall system balance is required ........... you may end up with more expensive speakers........than say source ... but the overall synergy and balance is really important inc room interactions. But all things being equal usually source first - is a guaranteed winner.........as Ivor put it 'rubbish in rubbish out' - but i have heard excellent speakers with a relatively modest amp sound excellent - a demo with the Hegel Rost - driving 10k speakers was an eye opener!

jlarsson posted:

Last year I reduced box-count and dropped vinyl, 252 etc and moved to 272/555DR/300DR. I simply no longer need an old-style general purpose preamp.

 

Hi there...That's interesting as your not the only one on the forum to have the 272/555DR/300DR system. But as I mentioned in my original post, the 555DR is Naim's top end power supply, and the 300DR is quite high up the chain also. Please forgive my lack of knowledge on Naim components, but would you say that system is balanced?

A dealer mentioned to me, that dressing the 272 with a 555 PS DR, and a 300 DR, will blow away the NDX, 250/282/HiCap, the very system I had short listed. I've not heard them yet, but does he have a point?

Thanks

joerand posted:

. I suspect many folks here have done more black box changes than speaker changes in their rooms, so of course they'd advise a source or amp as being more critical. I've had more than a dozen speakers home before finding the one that gelled with my room and ears. Same source(s) throughout.

 

If you manage to /are lucky enough to find great speakers early on, that suit room and ears, then you don’t need to change - either ever, or until even better speakers become available - and other improvements such as to source can shine through and simply make them ‘sing’ better at every upgrade.

Of course, those whose ears and expectations are such that the limitations of even cheap speakers will satisfy are lucky, as decent speakers that do well in all areas (particularly bass that is undiminished all the way down and well controlled, and equally good across the rest of the range) tend to be expensive...

It’s all ashes, without supportive/indulgent roommates, if applicable; and interested neighbors, if walls are shared.

Goes without saying, I suppose.

Nick

Richieroo posted:

as Ivor put it 'rubbish in rubbish out' 

Nothing but a safe 'playground' retort. A useless hi-fi idiom. No substance, explanation or actual experience attached.

Play me some very expensive speakers in a room mismatched. What have you got?

Now slap in an even more expensive source. Problem fixed?

for me source first approach working back to the speakers with a balance in the system has always been my thoughts, what ever that source is Digital or vinyl

Whats more important.  The turntable, arm, cartridge ? or the phonostage ?

Whats more important. Speaker cables, interconnects or power cables ?

Whats more important.  Support, position or room treatment ?

NickSeattle posted:

It’s all ashes, without supportive/indulgent roommates, if applicable; and interested neighbors, if walls are shared.

Goes without saying, I suppose.

Nick

Headphones? Easy and very compact system if you are only digital, a top quality system simply needing store/renderer like Innuos Zenith or Melco and Dave DAC which includes headphone amp (maybe plus MScaler), and headphones! No disturbance of others, and little space required. The challenge of course might be finding decent headphones...

Meerkat posted:

jlarsson posted:

Last year I reduced box-count and dropped vinyl, 252 etc and moved to 272/555DR/300DR. I simply no longer need an old-style general purpose preamp.

 

Hi there...That's interesting as your not the only one on the forum to have the 272/555DR/300DR system. But as I mentioned in my original post, the 555DR is Naim's top end power supply, and the 300DR is quite high up the chain also. Please forgive my lack of knowledge on Naim components, but would you say that system is balanced?

A dealer mentioned to me, that dressing the 272 with a 555 PS DR, and a 300 DR, will blow away the NDX, 250/282/HiCap, the very system I had short listed. I've not heard them yet, but does he have a point?

Thanks

I own the former and have heard the latter, albeit with different speakers in different rooms. You need to hear both options. It’s not just about sound, there is the issue of flexibility as well. For me, the simplicity of the 272, the better volume control and the fact it only needs two mains leads was what led me to go in that direction. While one may ultimately be better than the other they are both bloody good, and when you get them home and listening to your music, the fact that there is something out there that may be slightly better becomes irrelevant. No matter what you have there will always be something better.  

hungryhalibut posted:

I own the former and have heard the latter, albeit with different speakers in different rooms. You need to hear both options. It’s not just about sound, there is the issue of flexibility as well. For me, the simplicity of the 272, the better volume control and the fact it only needs two mains leads was what led me to go in that direction. While one may ultimately be better than the other they are both bloody good, and when you get them home and listening to your music, the fact that there is something out there that may be slightly better becomes irrelevant. No matter what you have there will always be something better.  

That is a profound and very true statement (unless you are a multi-millionnaire and have infinite time to audition to a vast range of gear, especially speakers) - and something maybe more of us should bear in mind rather than forever pursuing upgrades...

Richard Dane posted:

In my experience, when I used to take customer service calls at Naim, a lot of dissatisfaction came about from the scenario where a customer had heard a system playing some speakers they really liked, or read a great review of some speakers, had stretched their budget to buy them and then asked, what do I need to make them sound good.  The problem of course, was that the budget left little or no room for anything bar a source and amp that could never properly do them any justice.  And in fact, a lesser pair of speakers with better electronics up front would sound way more engaging. So, whatever you do, don't fix your sights on a pair of speakers first, using up all your budget in the process.

Apart from that, there is a hierarchy that goes source - pre-amp - power amp - speakers. Nothing further down the hierarchy can replace what is lost further up.  Keep that in mind and then go and hear some systems.  And remember, it's not about the "sound" but about the music that really matters; how the music communicates to you, and moves you.  You'll hear some impressive sounds, no doubt, but don't forget the music...

At the time I read this the topic was up to 65 comments. No need for me to comment because Richard Dane's comment sums up my own experience and seems entirely logical.

That's not to say that improvements can't be found at every level - my most recent experience (albeit a couple of years ago now) was to switch from 1 x 250 to 2 x 135. I was expecting a kind of "250 on steroids" performance but the improvements from the change in power amp were much greater and more subtle - in essence one step closer to what the music was about.  

I think the best approach, but probably impossible for most people, is to decide what one's ultimate 'all-time' budget for the system is going to be and then apply weighting to the spending in order of importance , starting from the source downstream.  Of course, it's a rare person that can resist the upgrade bug!!

hungryhalibut posted:

Meerkat posted:

jlarsson posted:

Last year I reduced box-count and dropped vinyl, 252 etc and moved to 272/555DR/300DR. I simply no longer need an old-style general purpose preamp.

 

Hi there...That's interesting as your not the only one on the forum to have the 272/555DR/300DR system. But as I mentioned in my original post, the 555DR is Naim's top end power supply, and the 300DR is quite high up the chain also. Please forgive my lack of knowledge on Naim components, but would you say that system is balanced?

A dealer mentioned to me, that dressing the 272 with a 555 PS DR, and a 300 DR, will blow away the NDX, 250/282/HiCap, the very system I had short listed. I've not heard them yet, but does he have a point?

Thanks

No matter what you have there will always be something better.  

Thanks HH, great reply.

dave marshall posted:

JedT posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I think you can separate music from sound. Music is in one's mind and is an emotional response.. sound creates a physical response that  we can map to many things including speech, music, warnings, natural sounds

Thank goodness Beethoven felt he could experience and write music without  hearing it in his later years. I suspect many experienced musicians can experience music without having to hear it... its us lesser mortals that require us to hear music to experience it.. as we need some helping cues.

I think that is a great point. Seems to me that lots of serious musicians with much better ears than me don't NEED really good hifi to enjoy music because their brains are able to paint a picture of the music from far fewer clues/cues.

Speaking as a happy amateur musician of more years standing than I care to think about, I'd agree that my ears do allow me to paint a picture of the music .................. shame my fingers have never been able to keep up! 

I think it is a sad economic reality that most "serious musicians" cannot afford the kind of playback equipment that we're discussing on this forum, even if they had ambitions to own it. FME, having worked in the music industry, working musicians are not all music fans - many of them like a break from their "day job" and are not music lovers in the way that hifi owners are. Neither am I persuaded that "serious musicians" have better ears than hifi enthusiasts - though this used to be the approach George (the bassist ex this forum) used to take to promote his own opinions

bluedog posted:

Richard Dane posted:

In my experience, when I used to take customer service calls at Naim, a lot of dissatisfaction came about from the scenario where a customer had heard a system playing some speakers they really liked, or read a great review of some speakers, had stretched their budget to buy them and then asked, what do I need to make them sound good.  The problem of course, was that the budget left little or no room for anything bar a source and amp that could never properly do them any justice.  And in fact, a lesser pair of speakers with better electronics up front would sound way more engaging. So, whatever you do, don't fix your sights on a pair of speakers first, using up all your budget in the process.

Apart from that, there is a hierarchy that goes source - pre-amp - power amp - speakers. Nothing further down the hierarchy can replace what is lost further up.  Keep that in mind and then go and hear some systems.  And remember, it's not about the "sound" but about the music that really matters; how the music communicates to you, and moves you.  You'll hear some impressive sounds, no doubt, but don't forget the music...

At the time I read this the topic was up to 65 comments. No need for me to comment because Richard Dane's comment sums up my own experience and seems entirely logical.

That's not to say that improvements can't be found at every level - my most recent experience (albeit a couple of years ago now) was to switch from 1 x 250 to 2 x 135. I was expecting a kind of "250 on steroids" performance but the improvements from the change in power amp were much greater and more subtle - in essence one step closer to what the music was about.  

I think the best approach, but probably impossible for most people, is to decide what one's ultimate 'all-time' budget for the system is going to be and then apply weighting to the spending in order of importance , starting from the source downstream.  Of course, it's a rare person that can resist the upgrade bug!!

I totally agree, but as you know, peoples budget can change. Sometimes for the better, and some not so good. A couple of years ago I had to sell all my Naim gear, as I encountered 'difficult' times. Hey ho, things are better now, which why I have decided to get back to my music...with Naim. 

Meerkat posted:

bluedog posted:

Richard Dane posted:

In my experience, when I used to take customer service calls at Naim, a lot of dissatisfaction came about from the scenario where a customer had heard a system playing some speakers they really liked, or read a great review of some speakers, had stretched their budget to buy them and then asked, what do I need to make them sound good.  The problem of course, was that the budget left little or no room for anything bar a source and amp that could never properly do them any justice.  And in fact, a lesser pair of speakers with better electronics up front would sound way more engaging. So, whatever you do, don't fix your sights on a pair of speakers first, using up all your budget in the process.

Apart from that, there is a hierarchy that goes source - pre-amp - power amp - speakers. Nothing further down the hierarchy can replace what is lost further up.  Keep that in mind and then go and hear some systems.  And remember, it's not about the "sound" but about the music that really matters; how the music communicates to you, and moves you.  You'll hear some impressive sounds, no doubt, but don't forget the music...

At the time I read this the topic was up to 65 comments. No need for me to comment because Richard Dane's comment sums up my own experience and seems entirely logical.

That's not to say that improvements can't be found at every level - my most recent experience (albeit a couple of years ago now) was to switch from 1 x 250 to 2 x 135. I was expecting a kind of "250 on steroids" performance but the improvements from the change in power amp were much greater and more subtle - in essence one step closer to what the music was about.  

I think the best approach, but probably impossible for most people, is to decide what one's ultimate 'all-time' budget for the system is going to be and then apply weighting to the spending in order of importance , starting from the source downstream.  Of course, it's a rare person that can resist the upgrade bug!!

I totally agree, but as you know, peoples budget can change. Sometimes for the better, and some not so good. A couple of years ago I had to sell all my Naim gear, as I encountered 'difficult' times. Hey ho, things are better now, which why I have decided to get back to my music...with Naim. 

I'm glad that your fortunes have turned and you're able to get back in to your Naim system - I hope you were able to hang on to your recordings.

Bluedog posted:

No need for me to comment because Richard Dane's comment sums up my own experience and seems entirely logical.

◾See below.....???????????? 

????Richard Dane posted:
And remember,it's not about the "sound" but about the music that really matters; how the music communicates to you, and moves you.  You'll hear some impressive sounds, no doubt, but don't forget the music...

◾I write this again.My comment below...???????????? 

Source First and Tune-Dem,as installation tools were,..and is what really applies,if you are going to have the maximum musical performance out of your music system.
This is also very easy to demonstrate if you have knowledge......So....

????Think on what Richard Dane writes above, this applies and has always shrilled.
If,...you listen to music instead of sound.

---------------------------------------------------------

What is quite clear in this thread is,that there seem to be two camps...
◾ One side is talking about better sound.
◾ The other side about better musicality.

Naim and Linn have ALWAYS aspired for better musicality,...and are touching agree on the ????Source First????.
So,..as I said in my previous post.I'm amazed that such threads like this pop up intermittently.
Traders have failed here,..and should be better at demonstrating the differences for their customers.

/Peder ????

Meerkat, I don’t know whereabouts you live, but you’d be most welcome to come round for a listen if you are anywhere near south east Hampshire. That said, you are probably on the other side of the world.

Peder posted:.

What is quite clear in this thread is,that there seem to be two camps...
◾ One side is talking about better sound.
◾ The other side about better musicality.

Naim and Linn have ALWAYS aspired for better musicality,...and are touching agree on the ????Source First????.
So,..as I said in my previous post.I'm amazed that such threads like this pop up intermittently.
Traders have failed here,..and should be better at demonstrating the differences for their customers.

/Peder ????

 

Maybe traders demonstrate the differences, but the customers prefer it differently... The perennial discussion of the subject shows that there are plenty of people who think differently from others - which is a good thing as it means we’re not all uniformists, we have personal likes and dislikes, and we are willing to discuss them and present our reasoning and understanding (and even learn from others). And yet, despite differering views on systems, we all (I assume) like listening to music through them! The important thing is that people can find something that they enjoy, and that satisfies them, individually - and a wise dealer will help them discover what that is, or develop it if already discovered, and not press for uniformity.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Peder posted:.

What is quite clear in this thread is,that there seem to be two camps...
◾ One side is talking about better sound.
◾ The other side about better musicality.

Naim and Linn have ALWAYS aspired for better musicality,...and are touching agree on the ????Source First????.
So,..as I said in my previous post.I'm amazed that such threads like this pop up intermittently.
Traders have failed here,..and should be better at demonstrating the differences for their customers.

/Peder ????

 

Maybe traders demonstrate the differences, but the customers prefer it differently... The perennial discussion of the subject shows that there are plenty of people who think differently from others - which is a good thing as it means we’re not all uniformists, we have personal likes and dislikes, and we are willing to discuss them and present our reasoning and understanding (and even learn from others). And yet, despite differering views on systems, we all (I assume) like listening to music through them! The important thing is that people can find something that they enjoy, and that satisfies them, individually - and a wise dealer will help them discover what that is, or develop it if already discovered, and not press for uniformity.

Obviously being a Naim forum, there's going to be a broad uniformity.  I'm not aware of any members that run a single ended valve amp with large horn and powered bass speakers fronted with a Naim CD player or streamer.

Isnt that the thing with the little black boxes, you buy one or two and then end up buying another four or five.

Outside of the Naim fold there are always those kind of leveller products that leaves its own large imprint on sound/music making that defies any change from changing other parts of a system

hungryhalibut posted:

Meerkat, I don’t know whereabouts you live, but you’d be most welcome to come round for a listen if you are anywhere near south east Hampshire. That said, you are probably on the other side of the world.

Thank you HH, that's very kind of you. I would have loved to, but I now live in Lincolnshire. To some though, Lincolnshire is the other side of the world.

Going back through the 'System Pics', as far back as 2011...people have changed their system on several occasions. Sometimes the source, the amps, the speakers...even the racks. I'm sure, for all manner of reasons.

You are so right, there will always be something bigger, or better sounding than the system we own. By the very nature of this forum, many of us do like a bit of upgraditis, including me!