Can someone check my understanding of how a switch works please

The music data from the NAS will not go via the long cable to your router, as the switch will identify the intended client for each packet of data, and send it there and nowhere else. Personally, I would still just get up and running with basic Ethernet cables. Just make sure they are certified Cat5e UTP. 

If, once it’s all up and running, you feel the urge to experiment with different cables at whatever price takes your fancy, you then have a baseline against which to compare them. 

Hi Terry

that is correct. I have a 15 run of Meicord cat6 from my ‘router’ to my switch and then 1m Meicords from switch to Nas and switch to 272. I bought the 15m Meicord as tidal sounds better through it. 

I agree with Chris. You could spend a lot of money on expensive ethernet cables and never know whether there was any benefit.

best

David

Great advice gents thank you . Im glad I at least got the switch thing right !

Terry Smith posted:

For a number of reasons I wont go into here in my new house my ethernet switch is going to be about 30' from my Router. However, the switch will be a lot closer to my NDX and my NAS which will both be connected to it  .

Am I right in thinking that when the NDX accesses ripped or downloaded music on the NAS then the connection is simply the short cables from the NDX to the switch and from the switch to the NAS and the 30' connection to the router is not involved at all? 

My reason for asking is that I am not planning to buy Hi-Fi CAT 6 cables for the 30' run to the router but I may consider buying them for the short runs to the NDX and NAS 

Terry, yes in normal circumstance the Ethernet frames containing sample data will pass from your media server (I think in your example  on your NAS) to your streamer. There is no concept of signal in this model.. it is simply a case of chunks of data that are collated, verified then passed on.

On some network audio equipment, the coupling of the directly connected Ethernet cable can cause coupling loading eff3cts, and change the resultant SQ or more likely sonic character from the host audio component. This has nothing to do with the transferred data but the result of RF coupling of the serial clocks used in the Ethernet connection.

One point, I found that in my setup (details in profile) a basic generic Cat6 UTP Ethernet patch cable actually outperformed some well respected 'audiophile' grade Ethernet cables (Cat6 & Cat7).

So just because an Ethernet cable is dressed up as an 'audiophile' grade Ethernet cable, that doesn't mean it'll perform better in your setup and in your electrical environment.

Just use good quality cat6 or even better cat5e (Because its not a bitch to work with)

Its more than enough for your network. If you are worried about audio quality, you could buy some different spikes for your hifi rack or something.

garyi posted:

Just use good quality cat6 or even better cat5e (Because its not a bitch to work with)

 

+1. Speaking from experience I will never ever fit Cat 6 Ethernet cables to an existing building again! I did it for some sense of future proofing (against what I don't know) and it was way too painful to fit a pair neatly threading though the structure of an old property.

NewNaim16 posted:

garyi posted:

Just use good quality cat6 or even better cat5e (Because its not a bitch to work with)

 

+1. Speaking from experience I will never ever fit Cat 6 Ethernet cables to an existing building again! I did it for some sense of future proofing (against what I don't know) and it was way too painful to fit a pair neatly threading though the structure of an old property.

Is Cat6 always stiffer than Cat5e? My understanding is that patch cables are made to be flexible to withstand repeated bending when connected and disconnected, whereas ‘installation’ cable can be stiffer, but this is not a 5e vs 6 issue. Shielding can also make the cable stiffer, but Cat6 can be UTP. 

Not it isn’t. Compliant Cat5e uses cable gauges of 24 to 26 AWG and Compliant Cat 6 uses cable gauges of 22 to 24 AWG... so it can be either the same or slightly stiffer.

22 AWG has a diameter of 0.65 mm

26 AWG has a diameter of 0.40 mm . 

24 AWG which is valid for both Cat5e and Cat 6 has a diameter of 0.51 mm.

Obviously with non compliant cables then all bets are off as they can do what they like as they are not real Cat defined cables.

I am sure thinner cat 6 must be available but all the stuff I have used has the central core and I would guess is at least twice as thick as cat5e and twice as stiff. I fought with four runs from my house to my shed, because a mate gave it too me for free, obviously nothing changed in terms of reliability or speed, but I learnt a new appreciation for the many varied swear words int he english language.

All the off the shelf cat 6 patch leads I have are much thicker and stiffer than cat5

I suspect you were dealing with Cat 6a not Cat 6 cable. Cat 6a really is designed for infrastructure rather than patch leads, and has wire sizes of 16 - 20 AWG which has a diameter per cable of 1.29mm to 0.81mm ... so if 16 AWG could be very stiff to work with... hence why designed for infrastructure.

i have some commercial Cat 6 cables that look and feel the same as Cat5e apart from the certification marking on the jacket... I also experimented with some 6a but was quite hard to work with. Always best to use compliant cables... even if it is so they do not put undue strain on suitable connectors and fatigue them over time.

garyi posted:

I am sure thinner cat 6 must be available but all the stuff I have used has the central core and I would guess is at least twice as thick as cat5e and twice as stiff. I fought with four runs from my house to my shed, because a mate gave it too me for free, obviously nothing changed in terms of reliability or speed, but I learnt a new appreciation for the many varied swear words int he english language.

 

All the off the shelf cat 6 patch leads I have are much thicker and stiffer than cat5

I know your pain. I recently fitted external cat6 to get my internet hardwired to my main room. Had to go out of the house using some existing holes for an old BT phone line and back in using holes left from an old satellite box in the front room. It was 30+ degress c on the day I decided to do it, I subsequently lost quite a bit of weight in perspiration alone just getting it to feed and bend according to my will. 

Worth it in the end I guess.

Terry Smith posted:

For a number of reasons I wont go into here in my new house my ethernet switch is going to be about 30' from my Router. However, the switch will be a lot closer to my NDX and my NAS which will both be connected to it  .

Am I right in thinking that when the NDX accesses ripped or downloaded music on the NAS then the connection is simply the short cables from the NDX to the switch and from the switch to the NAS and the 30' connection to the router is not involved at all? 

My reason for asking is that I am not planning to buy Hi-Fi CAT 6 cables for the 30' run to the router but I may consider buying them for the short runs to the NDX and NAS 

I look forward to the feedback 

Regards

Terry Smith 

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but Naim streamers do not have gigabit connectivity, and even if they did I suspect any future streamers will have better buffering which for audio will make slower connections more than acceptable, perhaps just a minor delay to buffer.

Personally I think you'd be fine with CAT 5e if you're simply re-using existing routing paths without the need for any significant structural/re-plastering work.

If it was a big job with re-plastering/embedding cables in multiple rooms required then yes, maybe future proof it a bit more.

I also think you'll find in older threads that people get variable, but in many cases, excellent results with fancy hi-fi 'ethernet' type cables using established older network infrastructure - the last link in the chain seems to be the most important as the effects of these cable have little to do with data transfer rates, but more to do with suppression of network noise.

The specification of the Naim streamers is up to Fast Ethernet, that is 10/100BaseT. I have checked the ND555 white paper and indeed still states up to Fast Ethernet support. I believe there are SQ advantages to limiting to Fast Ethernet over using Gigabit Ethernet, as only two pairs are used in Fast  Ethernet, thereby reducing the chance of coupling interference. Obviously application spooling will have no benefit over the direct link connection speed between streamer and switchport... increased spool buffering helps with latency and subsequent throughput variation over wide area networks such as the internet and congestion  on Wifi etc.

As far as cables, Cat 5e is good and specified to  1000 BaseT (ie Gbit) upto 100 metres. At 10Gbps Cat6 is only suitable for shorter distances up to around 33m. You need to use full Cat6a to provide 10 Gbps at the full 100 metres.

Alley Cat posted:

I also think you'll find in older threads that people get variable, but in many cases, excellent results with fancy hi-fi 'ethernet' type cables using established older network infrastructure - the last link in the chain seems to be the most important as the effects of these cable have little to do with data transfer rates, but more to do with suppression of network noise.

Yes it is not network noise, but the coupling of the RF modulation voltages from the physical layer serial drivers in the Ethernet adapter driving less than ideal balanced loads can modulate the ground plane on some connected devices. Naim have gone to some lengths on the ND555 to mitigate such things... proof of the pudding will be how well they have... ie does the sound change when the Ethernet cable is unplugged whilst the track spools out (from the new large buffer)

It might well be that naim is using old tech for ethernet but your nas or what ever might not be, so gigabit is always going to be the better option for copying data around etc.

Yeah, I wouldn’t say its old technology at all, as an Engineering designer  I would say it’s upto date appropriate technology for the best outcome... ie lower interference potential, and Fast Ethernet is simply massively more capable that need be for full fat high definition streaming.

Sure if you are transferring very large files around then aggregated Gigabit is more appropriate... however if using such speeds, you may need to look at rate limiting on switch ports for best performance, but I don’t believe most consumer stuff can support this..yet.... throughput is not all simply about physical link layer speeds... it would be a lot easier if it were.... at higher speeds, the devices can become the bottleneck not the network causing inefficient operation.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Alley Cat posted:

I also think you'll find in older threads that people get variable, but in many cases, excellent results with fancy hi-fi 'ethernet' type cables using established older network infrastructure - the last link in the chain seems to be the most important as the effects of these cable have little to do with data transfer rates, but more to do with suppression of network noise.

Yes it is not network noise, but the coupling of the RF modulation voltages from the physical layer serial drivers in the Ethernet adapter driving less than ideal balanced loads can modulate the ground plane on some connected devices. Naim have gone to some lengths on the ND555 to mitigate such things... proof of the pudding will be how well they have... ie does the sound change when the Ethernet cable is unplugged whilst the track spools out (from the new large buffer)

Thanks for clarifying what I was trying to convey 

garyi posted:

It might well be that naim is using old tech for ethernet but your nas or what ever might not be, so gigabit is always going to be the better option for copying data around etc.

For data absolutely, and having recently had the house wired with ethernet, network transfers that were once a PITA are now quite usable.  I've always disliked wi-fi for data transfer but I have to admit the speeds on an AC network now make me think it may not be too long before ethernet is superfluous for many things.

Alleycat, in much of my commercial work, Ethernet is really used for infrastructure, and increasingly user host access is via corporate Wifi. People and businesses require data connectivity to be more flexible these days for their devices... and corporate grade Wifi can be very very good... and these days we can create home Wifi which can be equally as good if using the right equipment from the likes of Ubiquiti and others with the correct implementation.

SimonPeterArnold posted:

garyi posted:

I am sure thinner cat 6 must be available but all the stuff I have used has the central core and I would guess is at least twice as thick as cat5e and twice as stiff. I fought with four runs from my house to my shed, because a mate gave it too me for free, obviously nothing changed in terms of reliability or speed, but I learnt a new appreciation for the many varied swear words int he english language.

 

All the off the shelf cat 6 patch leads I have are much thicker and stiffer than cat5

I know your pain. I recently fitted external cat6 to get my internet hardwired to my main room. Had to go out of the house using some existing holes for an old BT phone line and back in using holes left from an old satellite box in the front room. It was 30+ degress c on the day I decided to do it, I subsequently lost quite a bit of weight in perspiration alone just getting it to feed and bend according to my will.

Worth bearing in mind that Ethernet cables don’t like tight bends. You can usually get a minimum bend radius from the manufacturer, and a tighter bend than this can affect performance. 

ChrisSU posted:

SimonPeterArnold posted:

garyi posted:

I am sure thinner cat 6 must be available but all the stuff I have used has the central core and I would guess is at least twice as thick as cat5e and twice as stiff. I fought with four runs from my house to my shed, because a mate gave it too me for free, obviously nothing changed in terms of reliability or speed, but I learnt a new appreciation for the many varied swear words int he english language.

 

All the off the shelf cat 6 patch leads I have are much thicker and stiffer than cat5

I know your pain. I recently fitted external cat6 to get my internet hardwired to my main room. Had to go out of the house using some existing holes for an old BT phone line and back in using holes left from an old satellite box in the front room. It was 30+ degress c on the day I decided to do it, I subsequently lost quite a bit of weight in perspiration alone just getting it to feed and bend according to my will.

Worth bearing in mind that Ethernet cables don’t like tight bends. You can usually get a minimum bend radius from the manufacturer, and a tighter bend than this can affect performance. 

No tight bends, just not exactly  a straight hole through the wall.  

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Alleycat, in much of my commercial work, Ethernet is really used for infrastructure, and increasingly user host access is via corporate Wifi. People and businesses require data connectivity to be more flexible these days for their devices... and corporate grade Wifi can be very very good... and these days we can create home Wifi which can be equally as good if using the right equipment from the likes of Ubiquiti and others with the correct implementation.

Makes absolute sense.

If I'm shifting hundreds of GB or a TB of data around I'd want the stability of wired, whereas for iOS devices and some computers I'm stuck with wi-fi and it's so much better than only a few years ago.

Limited experience with Ubiquiti is amazing using an ERLite-3 to split my FTTC connection to business and home subnets, the latter via a Netgear gigabit switch to various rooms (never enough connections as you need at a single point, so other switches added downstream!).