ND555/NDX2

xcentric posted:

so, maybe a daft q, but here goes.....

The ND555 has a variable volume out, 

You sure about that ?

Use the Fixed volume setting and a preamp is what most people on here will tell you

I’m pretty sure that you cannot use it without a preamp, and Naim didn’t mention it when discussing the new streamers when some of us visited a few months ago. That said, the screen shot suggests otherwise. I wonder exactly what it means. 

I wondered that as it's a strange departure for Naim and a feature like this would have been mentioned at the factory visit.

They have got their online guides wrong before and those descriptions look more like they are for the Uniti range, especially the mention of using the ND555 with an external amplifier...

You might ask your dealer to demonstrate what difference a pre amp makes. I’ve not seen how the volume control is implemented, whether Naim designed it as a high quality option that will make a 552 redundant or to ameliorate over hot streaming services that aren’t that high in quality themselves.

That said, it does mention the 555 specifically. When I was asking about the ‘new’ 272 I’m sure they would have said ‘ah, you can use the 555’. Something seems to be wrong somewhere. 

I've emailed Jason on this to give clarification but he's on his hols so may not be able to respond until next week.

If this is right it sort of makes them a 572/371?

The variable volume output is there to support those apps that require it.  I wouldn't suggest one thinks about not using a preamp.  The best SQ option is fixed.

It did occur to me that ‘variable volume’ might be intended to mean system automation as we currently know it, allowing control of the preamp volume via the streamer remote and app. Hopefully someone from Naim will be able to clarify. 

This unfortunately brings us back to ......there is no manual, and the online support is inadequate......it’s a great shame. 

Wow great find, if true it really opens up a cost effective upgrade.

I think you can be 100% certain that it won’t be the case. When I was at Naim I was talking to Trevor, with a 555 in front of us with the top off, and I said ‘look at all that space, you could put a volume control in it’ then I could use it instead of my 272. If it were possible to control its volume, he would have said so. 

Gazza posted:

This unfortunately brings us back to ......there is no manual, and the online support is inadequate......it’s a great shame. 

Can anyone name another £20k electronic product that does not have a detailed user manual? Come on Naim, we love your products and want to get the best out of them.

Alba1320 posted:

Crispy posted:

Gazza posted:

This unfortunately brings us back to ......there is no manual, and the online support is inadequate......it’s a great shame. 

Can anyone name another £20k electronic product that does not have a detailed user manual? Come on Naim, we love your products and want to get the best out of them.

13K electronic product - the 7K PSU does have an instruction manual (though that probably 'adds insult to injury' ).

Agreed, and line 1 of the ND555 manual will be connect to 7k PSU.....

I've heard back from Jason.  The variable output feature is there to comply with Apple Airplay 2 requirements. It is not a substitute for a good pre-amp.  For best performance you should use the streamer in fixed output mode.  Naim do not recommend using the streamer directly into a power amplifier.

ok thanks, and thanks to Naim.  But I would quite like to know what the effect of using it straight into a power amp would be.  I may be cynical, but Naim will clearly want to sell me one or two more boxes.  If it's a clean volume adjustment, then that's all I need.....

The preamp is more than just a volume control, it also acts a a buffer to match the input and output impedances. Having just checked, the input impedance on a 552 pre is 47K whereas the 300 power amp is 18K. Without the pre in place, the source component is driving a lower impedance input than it is designed to. This will have a negative impact on sound quality imo.

xcentric posted:

ok thanks, and thanks to Naim.  But I would quite like to know what the effect of using it straight into a power amp would be.  I may be cynical, but Naim will clearly want to sell me one or two more boxes.  If it's a clean volume adjustment, then that's all I need.....

Well, I think any cynicism here is totally misplaced.  Jason tells me the effect is much poorer performance if you try to feed straight into a Naim power amplifier.  It makes sense, the power amplifier is only one half of the  pairing that make up the amplifier "whole" and Naim power amps are definitely designed to be used with a Naim pre-amp.

And if you still don't believe Jason, it's a free world, so even though it's not designed to be used this way, nobody will stop you trying it for yourself. Good luck, please don't break anything..

I didn't mean to cause offence - but it's not an unreasonable question.  In today's world where many people like me have only one source (digital, whether NAS or streaming), and brought up in an era when a pre-amp did just minor amplification, volume control and switching, and in a time when fewer components in the line was viewed as a good thing, if a just-released streamer has a variable volume control, it's a possibility that Naim have come up with an approach that would work well and remove a box or two.  But then when they it's just to meet Airplay requirements, and is not a substitute, I'd quite like to understand why.  DaveBK's answer makes some sense as reflections may occur.....

I'd really like Naim to bring out a pre-amp for the modern era - single digital source, volume control and impedance matching - and with some much less circuitry, it could be a lot cheaper too.....  It was too much to hope that they had done and built it into the new streamers then.....

I tried a Chord Dave into NAP 300 hoping to obviate the cost of a 252/supercap. It sounded lifeless. Was worth a try, nothing broken, will not bother again with that idea myself.

xcentric posted:

I didn't mean to cause offence - but it's not an unreasonable question.  In today's world where many people like me have only one source (digital, whether NAS or streaming), and brought up in an era when a pre-amp did just minor amplification, volume control and switching, and in a time when fewer components in the line was viewed as a good thing, if a just-released streamer has a variable volume control, it's a possibility that Naim have come up with an approach that would work well and remove a box or two.  But then when they it's just to meet Airplay requirements, and is not a substitute, I'd quite like to understand why.  DaveBK's answer makes some sense as reflections may occur.....

I'd really like Naim to bring out a pre-amp for the modern era - single digital source, volume control and impedance matching - and with some much less circuitry, it could be a lot cheaper too.....  It was too much to hope that they had done and built it into the new streamers then.....

No offence taken. Just telling it as it is.

What you're asking for here is a different product - a combined streamer and pre-amp - and one that we may well see in due course in the future if the previous NAC-N272 is any indication.

Gazza posted:

I tried a Chord Dave into NAP 300 hoping to obviate the cost of a 252/supercap. It sounded lifeless. Was worth a try, nothing broken, will not bother again with that idea myself.

It’s an intriguing idea to eliminate the preamp, freeing up funds that might improve the source and reduce boxes. The cost of an ND555 is the same as NDX/XPS/252/Supercap. Just how bad is that built in volume control?

xcentric posted:

ok thanks, and thanks to Naim.  But I would quite like to know what the effect of using it straight into a power amp would be.  I may be cynical, but Naim will clearly want to sell me one or two more boxes.  If it's a clean volume adjustment, then that's all I need.....

The answer to the question is ‘do the audition’. There is a big difference between a means to digitally control the volume and a proper analogue volume control. I’d love to see a better streaming preamp - a 372 or 572 - but neither the ND555 nor the NDX2 is that beast. If it were it would have a big round knob on the left hand section of the front panel.