What Comes First Sound Quality or Room Aesthetics?
Posted by: Bob the Builder on 19 August 2018
When buying hifi if the best sounding system you could afford meant having multiple boxes and physical media on show in your living room would you compromise on SQ to keep your room more aesthetically pleasing?
If you are lucky enough to have a dedicated listening room or all of your boxes and records or cd's tucked away somewhere this doesn't really apply I'm talking about those of us that live in smaller houses and flats (apartments).
I'm very lucky in that my other half is a music lover too and she tolerates the rack the black boxes and all of the records because she knows it sounds than a swanky lifestyle box.
I have yet to see acoustic room treatments that aren't ugly, IMO. My room gets treated with ... well, the room. I have a big wool rug, furniture, window coverings, wall art, etc. My 3000+ collection of vinyl recordings covers the wall behind the speakers, and they function really well as a diffuser.
This is the best way imo as if your living room is not very minimalist and you have the normal carpets, curtains, rugs, cushions, shelves with books or records on them this will all act as room treatments.
Bob the Builder posted:This is the best way imo as if your living room is not very minimalist and you have the normal carpets, curtains, rugs, cushions, shelves with books or records on them this will all act as room treatments.
???? Bob the Builder,.....I agree,that was what I wrote about in my previous post here.
It's what I call "Room-Tunning", I put it in again here below.
I know a Professor of acoustics,he has previously done acoustic measurements both in my listening room and his own.
With these measurements as a starting point, we have tried to adapt and dampen the listening room,..It's not been good,see below...
◾ It may sound good, but something is always missing,... for example.. The nerve, the liveliness, the natural dynamics.◾
What,..however has become good,is when I used "Room-Tunning".
Both in my place,and when I helped said Professor of acoustics to install and optimize his music system.
He was very satisfied.
"I use the term "room-tunning",it involves a combination of installing,optimizing the music system along with adjustments of furniture, carpets,paintings,curtains,large flowers etc,etc in relation to the loudspeakers and the music system.
◾Example: After making a "tunning" of the speakers,you make a "tunning" of different parts of the furniture.
Then after that,you go back to making a "tunning" of the speakers,....then back to the furniture etc...
Yes,you understand what I mean,..This takes time,perhaps one year before everything is optimally ????????????.
But I,..AND we who have done this,have never had to use "acoustic aids".
Yes,..I have tried such aids,even listened in completely Acoustics adapted rooms,rebuilt by professionals in the field of acoustics.
It may sound good,but something is always missing,...for example..The nerve,the liveliness, the natural dynamics.
◾Factors that I think are very important in the musical presentation."
/Peder ????
Yes Peder I read your as always very interesting post unfortunately for me though is that I live in a small Edwardian terraced house a 'two up two down' and in the living room there is no real room for manoeuvre but on the whole I'm happy with the sound anyway.
Bob the Builder posted:This is the best way imo as if your living room is not very minimalist and you have the normal carpets, curtains, rugs, cushions, shelves with books or records on them this will all act as room treatments.
Yes, though in most cases can be improved, and as I indicated itbreally is part of the sound system,, and one that is hugely overlooked by most people, even when spending vast sums on the rest. At some point it is likely to be prudent to consider whether some expenditure on the room might bring improvement, possibly out of all proportion to cost.
Bass issues are perhaps the most recognised - and difficult to deal with because of the size of absorbers that can sometimes be needed to be effective, and instead people often compromise by using speakers that simply don’t have low bass. But often significant, especially in smaller rooms, is early reflections - from side walls, also ceiling and floor. These cause muddying of the sound and reduce clarity - and even if it sounds great, it may still be not as good as it can be with the rest of the system. So attention to whether there is something absorbing or scattering specifically at the early reflection points is worthwhile, and if not adding - which could simply mean rearranging things like bookshelves, specialised panels, which as I’ve indicated they can have artwork of one’s choice, so can appear to be just a picture or graphic, or wall-coloured.
Bob the Builder posted:Yes Peder I read your as always very interesting post unfortunately for me though is that I live in a small Edwardian terraced house a 'two up two down' and in the living room there is no real room for manoeuvre but on the whole I'm happy with the sound anyway.
???? Bob the Builder,....Small adjustments can also affect a lot,it's just to try it out.
For example,if you have the speakers on a short wall,and for example,a bookshelf on one of the long walls.
Try shooting the Bookshelf front or back 5-10cm after the long wall,it can make a difference.
Start with larger movements,and halve the movement each time until you've found the best location,....just like with speaker-tunning.
I think you understand what I mean,..work so with everything in the room.
You probably know what we call,...the first floor,wall or ceiling-reflex.
You put an "Supposed" mirror there,so that you see the speaker in the intended mirror.
There you should have some kind of "Dampening materials".
We actually added a small "Acoustic panel" in the ceiling of a very large room,where the first "ceiling-reflex" hits the ceiling.
The acoustics of the room was incredibly much better,the disc was no larger than 20 * 100cm.
It is the only "professional" acoustic material we used,you often forget the ceiling...but it can affect incredibly much.
I shall see if I can arrange a picture of this ceiling-disc we used.
But as I said before,this takes time...you do a little now and then,and..Important,do not stress.
/Peder ????
Innocent Bystander posted:Bob the Builder posted:This is the best way imo as if your living room is not very minimalist and you have the normal carpets, curtains, rugs, cushions, shelves with books or records on them this will all act as room treatments.
Yes, though in most cases can be improved, and as I indicated itbreally is part of the sound system,, and one that is hugely overlooked by most people, even when spending vast sums on the rest. At some point it is likely to be prudent to consider whether some expenditure on the room might bring improvement, possibly out of all proportion to cost.
Bass issues are perhaps the most recognised - and difficult to deal with because of the size of absorbers that can sometimes be needed to be effective, and instead people often compromise by using speakers that simply don’t have low bass. But often significant, especially in smaller rooms, is early reflections - from side walls, also ceiling and floor. These cause muddying of the sound and reduce clarity - and even if it sounds great, it may still be not as good as it can be with the rest of the system. So attention to whether there is something absorbing or scattering specifically at the early reflection points is worthwhile, and if not adding - which could simply mean rearranging things like bookshelves, specialised panels, which as I’ve indicated they can have artwork of one’s choice, so can appear to be just a picture or graphic, or wall-coloured.
I have a bass trap. It's my 85 lb dog laying on the rug. Sadly, she doesn't always cooperate. LOL
I'm sure I could make things more and more perfect with measurements, analysis and treatments, etc. However, I'm happy to be 85-90% there, so I can get about the business of enjoying my home without it looking like a recording studio, and listening to music. Trying to achieve audio nirvana tends to drive one nuts and distracts from the true purpose for enjoying the system. That's why when people call me an "audiophile" I correct them to say I absolutely am not an audiophile, I'm a music lover. I just got my Naim gear back from a recap and DR upgrade service. Prior to that I did nothing to tune or tweak my system or room in the last 4 years.
RaceTripper posted:I'm sure I could make things more and more perfect with measurements, analysis and treatments, etc. However, I'm happy to be 85-90% there, so I can get about the business of enjoying my home without it looking like a recording studio, and listening to music. Trying to achieve audio nirvana tends to drive one nuts and distracts from the true purpose for enjoying the system. That's why when people call me an "audiophile" I correct them to say I absolutely am not an audiophile, I'm a music lover. I just got my Naim gear back from a recap and DR upgrade service. Prior to that I did nothing to tune or tweak my system or room in the last 4 years.
Fair enough. But maybe it is worth considering how much time and effort you spend choosing the other system components - for some people it is a lot...
???? Bob the Builder,....Here are two pictures of the small panels that we used in the ceiling,..I wrote about them in my previous post.
I also described where they should sit (mirror example),but use some sort of tape so you can attach them to the ceiling..Play and listen,and possibly move them until you find the right place..Before you attach them.
Only two such panels are used,..And this in the ceiling,everything else is ordinary "Room-Tunning" as I described earlier.
And as I said,..the result was a brilliant musical music-rendition.
So add a little,...or very much time on this,..it's the best investment you can make.
Below a little product information... ????????????
◾How It Works,..Incredible Finish Quality.
The Sound Panel provides absorption from 200Hz up through the entire treble range.
Like other ASC products,a built-in reflector strip is used to maintain diffusive ambience.
Additionally, when placed on 2-3 foot intervals, the panel's edge diffraction induces mid-range lateral diffusion for enhanced spaciousness.
ASC’s own fabrication technicians will hand build and meticulously assemble each Panel to a quality standard only available from ASC.
SoundPlanks are available covered with 5 in-stock Guilford of Maine 701 fabrics,or choose from many special order colors to match your specific needs.◾
????Below the two image-links..????????
1. Soundpanel
https://i.imgur.com/rPdnZBw.jpg
2. A view from a room
https://i.imgur.com/RxCOBkX.jpg
/Peder????
Innocent Bystander posted:RaceTripper posted:I'm sure I could make things more and more perfect with measurements, analysis and treatments, etc. However, I'm happy to be 85-90% there, so I can get about the business of enjoying my home without it looking like a recording studio, and listening to music. Trying to achieve audio nirvana tends to drive one nuts and distracts from the true purpose for enjoying the system. That's why when people call me an "audiophile" I correct them to say I absolutely am not an audiophile, I'm a music lover. I just got my Naim gear back from a recap and DR upgrade service. Prior to that I did nothing to tune or tweak my system or room in the last 4 years.
Fair enough. But maybe it is worth considering how much time and effort you spend choosing the other system components - for some people it is a lot...
True. For me I have to stop at some point and say I'm done. Every once in a while I make a change. Sometimes it's after 15-20 years. Sometimes after 4 years (like my recent recap and DR service). Those infrequent changes are done carefully. But I really don't enjoy that much the time spent selecting, auditioning, setup, etc. I'm really after getting to the point where I can collapse on the sofa and enjoy playing records.
Given all that, I really want my room to look and feel like a normal room and am willing to pass on acoustic treatments, even if it doesn't get me all the way there to the best my system can sound. I feel like I have my money and time's worth as it is. I realize many have other attitudes and priorities about it.
Peder posted:.
ASC’s own fabrication technicians will hand build and meticulously assemble each Panel to a quality standard only available from ASC.
SoundPlanks are available covered with 5 in-stock Guilford of Maine 701 fabrics,or choose from many special order colors to match your specific needs.◾????Below the two image-links..????????
1. Soundpanel
https://i.imgur.com/rPdnZBw.jpg2. A view from a room
https://i.imgur.com/RxCOBkX.jpg/Peder????
And others, like GIK already mentioned, also manufacture quality panels of a variety of typles and finishes.
I also found that there is variety of other products are availabe E.g. There are these - so you really should be able to find something to suit all tastes.
Innocent Bystander posted:
And others, like GIK already mentioned, also manufacture quality panels of a variety of typles and finishes.
I also found that there is variety of other products are availabe E.g. There are these - so you really should be able to find something to suit all tastes.
My listening room would look like a child daycare with those examples. I guess we could move in all my wife's childhood stuffed animals to provide some extra diffusion. LOL
Still yet to see any acoustic treatment that isn't obviously that and looks pretty awful. But each to their own taste, I suppose. 
Both clearly important. For me especially speakers as the system is hidden away in our living room. However when bought current speakers I went from 10 candidates to 2 mainly based on looks and ability to work close to the wall. Many great speakers would never make with myself or the family. Luckily I found a pair that both sounds great, works and looks well in the room. Thats my experience on this. Br Lars
Room treatment doesn’t need to be ugly... I have a dedicated room, but the ambiance is really important to me. I spent ages looking at fabric swatches to get curtains carpet and panels to coordinate.
Just to be clear so everyone understand,I only use the room's regular decor when I work with "Room-Tunning".
I also want it to look like a normal room.
The reason that these acoustic "Soundpanel" was used (see previous post),was that they were available.
In addition,they were small and worked perfectly in the ceiling,..as they were white, they also disappeared against the white roof.
These have also been tested in the corners of the room,but the best result was when they were used in the ceiling.
/Peder ????
I have found a good balance of using room correction which doesn’t intrude. I wouldn’t want to have a living room which looks like a studio just because of the music. This would only be acceptable with a separate listening room.
Fortunately I have my own listening room, I am in the process of sorting out the room acoustics using some GIK panels.
I had an email recently from them to say you can buy now any panel and have it designed with any picture or colour scheme you want on the front. I’m sure other companies probably do exactly the same...
My conclusion is the panels, bass traps ect work extremely well, and bring the best out of our expensive black boxes....more often than not if their is something amiss with our systems it’s probably the room as opposed to anything else...
If you don’t have your own listening room then try and at least do something to make a difference as others have suggested
Bert Schurink posted:I have found a good balance of using room correction which doesn’t intrude. I wouldn’t want to have a living room which looks like a studio just because of the music. This would only be acceptable with a separate listening room.
I have a dedicated listening room (see photo above) and it looks like a normal living space; rather, nothing like a studio. I think the only possible acoustic treatment I might tolerate is maybe some ceiling panels like Peder describes, if the benefit warrants. But the wall panels and bass traps I have seen look like just as that, and not a natural addition to living space. It doesn't matter if they are stained/painted/decorated to look like art. They aren't. They are still acoustic panels and obviously so. It's just not worth it to me to spoil an enjoyable space with that. I get that others are OK with it and think they look OK. It's not for me. The room aesthetic has to take a reasonable priority, even if the SQ isn't optimal.
Almost all the music I listen to is acoustic jazz and classical. I discern no issues that need room correction and love the sound. Perhaps ignorance is bliss.
RaceTripper posted:Bert Schurink posted:I have found a good balance of using room correction which doesn’t intrude. I wouldn’t want to have a living room which looks like a studio just because of the music. This would only be acceptable with a separate listening room.
I have a dedicated listening room (see photo above) and it looks like a normal living space; rather, nothing like a studio. I think the only possible acoustic treatment I might tolerate is maybe some ceiling panels like Peder describes, if the benefit warrants. But the wall panels and bass traps I have seen look like just as that, and not a natural addition to living space. It doesn't matter if they are stained/painted/decorated to look like art. They aren't. They are still acoustic panels and obviously so. It's just not worth it to me to spoil an enjoyable space with that. I get that others are OK with it and think they look OK. It's not for me. The room aesthetic has to take a reasonable priority, even if the SQ isn't optimal.
Almost all the music I listen to is acoustic jazz and classical. I discern no issues that need room correction and love the sound. Perhaps ignorance is bliss.
Other than that it may be a bit thicker than, say, a typical canvas stretched over a frame, how is an acoustic panel obviously so when faced with a print of any artwork of your choice, from your own photo to a reproduction of an old master?
Of course, as you say, ignorance may be bliss - or maybe you are lucky, and your room just happens to be near perfect!
Innocent Bystander posted:...Other than that it may be a bit thicker than, say, a typical canvas stretched over a frame, how is an acoustic panel obviously so when faced with a print of any artwork of your choice, from your own photo to a reproduction of an old master?
Of course, as you say, ignorance may be bliss - or maybe you are lucky, and your room just happens to be near perfect!
I guess I would have to see such a panel, but I haven't yet seen one that didn't just say "faux." I have artist prints. I also have paintings on strecthed canvas (my wife's mother was a well-known local artist). They use very high quality paper/canvas and inks, and look a lot different than cheaper copies you get in a non-art gallery store, etc. I suspect the acoustic panels are going to be closer to the latter than the former. I put real art on my walls, not posters or faux art. I can tell the difference. But it matters to me, and not most I'm sure.
Well, I suspect more people have reproduction artwork than originals on their walls... butbthat’s actually irrelevant, all that matters in this context is thatbteh panels look noce.
GIK is one place that does, so if at all interested you can check out tneir website. I know from inquiring that it can be any i age, so Icould send them photos of my own, or purchase from them, or purchase from any art website and send to them.
Innocent Bystander posted:Well, I suspect more people have reproduction artwork than originals on their walls... butbthat’s actually irrelevant, all that matters in this context is thatbteh panels look noce.
GIK is one place that does, so if at all interested you can check out tneir website. I know from inquiring that it can be any i age, so Icould send them photos of my own, or purchase from them, or purchase from any art website and send to them.
Yeah, I suppose one could get something there to look decent. I'd like to see one in the flesh. You can't really judge the quality from web site pictures. Nevertheless, the space I have left on my listening room walls is reserved for some more jazz-themed artist prints I've been wanting to hang.
I think you just get used to your own acoustics; as long as it's not echoey then it should be fine. IME home listening often sounds better than it did at the dealers and I think that's just down to a familiar environment. A window blind, a rug, light furnishings should be the only additions you may need to make.
I have an 18th century longcase clock in my listening room whose tick you don't notice after a while. I have turned the strike off though