NAP 300 has introduced too much bass

Gosh Roog, if I was you I might be sorry I ever posted this !  So many varied solutions proposed to you...

But there are some common themes with which I agree: 

1. your preamp is letting you down   and    2. your NAP300 is now driving your ATC40's the way they should be driven.  3. speaker position might need changing.

HH first mentioned the 272 - I'm in full agreement with him.  My NAC N272 was both the preamp & streaming source feeding a NAP500 + B&W802s while my NAC552 was on holiday in Salisbury being DR'd - it's an admirable and very capable box of tricks, possible the most underrated of the Naim product range.  So I'll join HH and others in recommending a 272.

Stick with your 300 - your "in for a penny, in for a pound" strategy might have been a bit rash, but I'd have done the same.  Problem is, you now have problems, but I'm sure that in the shorter term, a few more days (or even weeks) will allow your ears + brain system to reconcile to this new way of hearing music.  And if it doesn't, you know that at least you have a fine amp that will be with you for years to come (especially if you service it).

On the subject of speaker positioning, I'm not so sure.  ATC speakers are built to work  in a studio environment where space can be an issue.  My 100's fire across a long & narrow room and are necessarily close to the wall (20cm away).  So, although I won't dispute the fact that positioning can make a significant difference with some speakers, I would not be so convinced with the ones you have.

As I said earlier, so many opinions on offer... but think of the fun you'll have exploring all the suggestions  (but rather you than me at my time of life)

Roger

ChrisSU posted:

ROOG posted:

Bob the Builder posted:

Your room sounds ok size wise and it may well all settle down but as has been pointed out I think the pre amp section may be letting you down.  An ideal sitution would be to borrow a 272 or 282, 82, 252 or 52 to put between the SU (if it can just be used as a source) and the 300 to see if that helps this would give some idea if a better pre would help.

Yep, I think this is a plan BtB, im sure I can persuade my dealer to lend me one of those. It might at least show if this is a significant factor.  

There is no line out on a Superuniti, so you cannot run it as a source into a separate preamp. So you would really need to upgrade the source at the same time, or just get a 272. 

I did say if it can be used as a Source as I wasn’t aware if it could myself. 

Roog just give in the 272 cult will not rest until you comply and the next thing you know you’ll be buying a £7.5k power supply to cover up its short comings. 

Bob the Builder posted:

Roog just give in the 272 cult will not rest until you comply and the next thing you know you’ll be buying a £7.5k power supply to cover up its short comings. 

LOL, Thanks BtB, well I guess it would be quite easy to try. The PS would be quite another thing though. 

rjstaines posted:

Gosh Roog, if I was you I might be sorry I ever posted this !  So many varied solutions proposed to you...

But there are some common themes with which I agree: 

1. your preamp is letting you down   and    2. your NAP300 is now driving your ATC40's the way they should be driven.  3. speaker position might need changing.

HH first mentioned the 272 - I'm in full agreement with him.  My NAC N272 was both the preamp & streaming source feeding a NAP500 + B&W802s while my NAC552 was on holiday in Salisbury being DR'd - it's an admirable and very capable box of tricks, possible the most underrated of the Naim product range.  So I'll join HH and others in recommending a 272.

Stick with your 300 - your "in for a penny, in for a pound" strategy might have been a bit rash, but I'd have done the same.  Problem is, you now have problems, but I'm sure that in the shorter term, a few more days (or even weeks) will allow your ears + brain system to reconcile to this new way of hearing music.  And if it doesn't, you know that at least you have a fine amp that will be with you for years to come (especially if you service it).

On the subject of speaker positioning, I'm not so sure.  ATC speakers are built to work  in a studio environment where space can be an issue.  My 100's fire across a long & narrow room and are necessarily close to the wall (20cm away).  So, although I won't dispute the fact that positioning can make a significant difference with some speakers, I would not be so convinced with the ones you have.

As I said earlier, so many opinions on offer... but think of the fun you'll have exploring all the suggestions  (but rather you than me at my time of life)

Roger

 

Thank you for your thoughtful reply rjstaines. The point you make about the speakers is a good one. One of the reasons why i opted for the SCM 40's are that as an infinite baffle design they are less affected by placement, but I agree with the general feeling that it would be worth a try to relocate. 

analogmusic posted:

as a regulated amplifier it is now 13 years old, and I guess.... maybe in need of a service...?

how is the 300 plugged into mains? Direct into wall socket?

Is the switch on the SU set to chassis? are there any sources of mains noise such as mobile chargers in the same electrical sockets as the SU?

one way to improve performance of SU preamp is to feed it better quality power through a Naim power line. But borrow before you buy.

How is the Superuniti feeding the NAP 300? are these genuine naim cables?

Hope it works out for you.

Hi Analogumusic, your point about mains supply is a good one, i am able to re arrange my supply set up to get a more direct connection to the 300 and i propose to borrow some different and more expensive power cables from a friend. So both cheap and easy to try, i especially like that.

Bob the Builder posted:

ChrisSU posted:

ROOG posted:

Bob the Builder posted:

Your room sounds ok size wise and it may well all settle down but as has been pointed out I think the pre amp section may be letting you down.  An ideal sitution would be to borrow a 272 or 282, 82, 252 or 52 to put between the SU (if it can just be used as a source) and the 300 to see if that helps this would give some idea if a better pre would help.

Yep, I think this is a plan BtB, im sure I can persuade my dealer to lend me one of those. It might at least show if this is a significant factor.  

There is no line out on a Superuniti, so you cannot run it as a source into a separate preamp. So you would really need to upgrade the source at the same time, or just get a 272. 

I did say if it can be used as a Source as I wasn’t aware if it could myself. 

I did try my SU feeding a NAP 250dr at a dealer, and it worked very well. I am a intrigued as to whether or why the NAP 300 should present a significantly more difficult load to control? 

Do Naim product pre outs vary in their basic technical specifications? 

ROOG posted:

I did try my SU feeding a NAP 250dr at a dealer, and it worked very well. I am a intrigued as to whether or why the NAP 300 should present a significantly more difficult load to control? 

Do Naim pre outs vary in their technical specification? 

It's the other way round - NAP 300 amplifies what it is given with more ease.
So with a good pre-amp it lets it shine easily. Converse can also be true - a weaker pre-amp will be 'exposed' more easily. And this is what I think you are hearing now - NAP 300 'exposing' your source / pre-amp.

FWIW, I have used a 300 DR with a SU and a 272 (without external PSU) and I didn’t notice any bass problems. The speakers are nSat/nSub and sopra1, none of them positioned very scientifically. 

ROOG posted:

Dear all,

I have recently added a s/h NAP 300 (non dr) to my system and I am finding the bass a bit overwhelming and I would say bloated. Mids, Hi’s and imaging sound absolutely fine and familiar.

So, my question is, is this likely to subside with use/time?

My system sits on a 4 level Fraim and is: SU > 300 > NAC A5 (6m) > ATC SCM 40

The set up has not changed from my previous system, rack and speaker positions etc, just without the 300 and to my ears, with the SU alone it had a better tonal balance.

My reason for introducing the 300 was to improve control over the bass at high volumes, the SU sounded a bit ragged at volume.

The NAP 300 has been ‘on’ for 36hrs since shipping.

Do I just need to be a bit patient or are there measures I should take?

some months ago i was interesting myself in atc 19 and 40 speakers.  My room is around 19m2, 2,5m high.  Two dealers in France said me that atc 40 need at minimum 30m2 to breathe and to have a proper bass.

I have nap 300dr too. My speakers have not excessive bass, but i feel i am at the limit.

My advice would be change your speakers or try before something like acoustic gaia or townsend platforms under your speakers.

Also the superuniti has not an enough good preamp to control your amp.

Adam Zielinski posted:

ROOG posted:

I did try my SU feeding a NAP 250dr at a dealer, and it worked very well. I am a intrigued as to whether or why the NAP 300 should present a significantly more difficult load to control? 

Do Naim pre outs vary in their technical specification? 

It's the other way round - NAP 300 amplifies what it is given with more ease.
So with a good pre-amp it lets it shine easily. Converse can also be true - a weaker pre-amp will be 'exposed' more easily. And this is what I think you are hearing now - NAP 300 'exposing' your source / pre-amp.

Shouldn't the dealer have advised on this mismatch?

Guinnless posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

ROOG posted:

I did try my SU feeding a NAP 250dr at a dealer, and it worked very well. I am a intrigued as to whether or why the NAP 300 should present a significantly more difficult load to control? 

Do Naim pre outs vary in their technical specification? 

It's the other way round - NAP 300 amplifies what it is given with more ease.
So with a good pre-amp it lets it shine easily. Converse can also be true - a weaker pre-amp will be 'exposed' more easily. And this is what I think you are hearing now - NAP 300 'exposing' your source / pre-amp.

Shouldn't the dealer have advised on this mismatch?

I was assuming that there wasn’t one!!?

Sorry, I saw the bit about the 250DR demo and made an assumption. ????

I’m not convinced the 300 should cause such a problem. I also would check the positioning of the burndies making sure they are positioned optimally.

ive heard a super Uniti with 250 dr and it was considerably better than bare super Uniti 

wish you good luck. 

Just throwing my 2 Cents' worth in here. I did a long trip abroad a couple of years ago and turned everything off before I left for safety's sake. When I returned and spun my system up it sounded horrible - bassy and harsh. It took way longer than 36 hours to recover, from memory it was more like 3 weeks.

The second point a lot of respondents have made is about speaker positioning. I'm inclined to say to leave them as is on the basis that if they've been fine before the 300 was added then there's a good chance they're in the optimum position.

I know waiting isn't easy but if you can, put some music on a loop, turn the volume down when you don't want to listen to it and let the electronics do their magic. I think you'll hear a world of difference in a week.

I appreciate all of the responses so far, many thanks.

Just to clarify, i bought the 300 second hand un-seen. I had spent quite some considerable time in the preceding months testing combinations both at home and in shop demos. Whilst i didn't try the SU > 300 combination I did try a number of amplifiers with my SU none of which caused a bass issue. Amongst those were the 250dr and another very revealing amplifier, again no problems with either.

I am happy to leave it to see if it settles down for the time being and to try a bit of fine tuning with power supply, cables and speaker position. 

analogmusic posted:

I’m not convinced the 300 should cause such a problem. I also would check the positioning of the burndies making sure they are positioned optimally.

ive heard a super Uniti with 250 dr and it was considerably better than bare super Uniti 

wish you good luck. 

Hi Analogmusic,

I am inclined to agree with both your comments, I will also check Burndies.

Chrissw19 posted:

FWIW, I have used a 300 DR with a SU and a 272 (without external PSU) and I didn’t notice any bass problems. The speakers are nSat/nSub and sopra1, none of them positioned very scientifically. 

Thanks Chris,

Your experience is what i was expecting.

I appreciate that the SU is not an ideal pre-amp/source, and yes of course it is the limiting factor, i wasn't expecting miracles, I merely hoped that it might be a reasonable interim system.    

Roog, the SU is very good and it was very enjoyable with the 300. When I installed a 272, the difference compared to the SU/300 was a lot smaller than what I was expecting. I’m no expert in bass tuning but I would look toward the speakers rather than the SU. If you have the possibility to borrow a chord dac (one with a variable volume control) you could install it between SU digital out and the 300 and find out if the bass issue is still there.

Chrissw19 posted:

Roog, the SU is very good and it was very enjoyable with the 300. When I installed a 272, the difference compared to the SU/300 was a lot smaller than what I was expecting. I’m no expert in bass tuning but I would look toward the speakers rather than the SU. If you have the possibility to borrow a chord dac (one with a variable volume control) you could install it between SU digital out and the 300 and find out if the bass issue is still there.

I agree. When my dealer removed the 300 and whilst awaiting the arrival of the 250 we hooked up my SuperUniti direct to the ProAc K6s. Result was a very nice sound (albeit nothing up to the 272/555 standard) and absolutely no bass issue. Conclusion was an issue with the synergy between speakers, the 300 and the room was causing the bass issue.

I really do suspect all the fine tuning in the world will not solve Roog’s problems and, if he keeps the 300, he will end up changing his speakers. Slippery slope! I really believe it would be worthwhile begging, borrowing or stealing a 250DR to compare against the 300 in existing system.

Jonners posted:

The second point a lot of respondents have made is about speaker positioning. I'm inclined to say to leave them as is on the basis that if they've been fine before the 300 was added then there's a good chance they're in the optimum position.

 

But adding the 300 changes the system so it is quite possible that another part of the system e.g. the speakers, now need adjustment.  I have found that my speakers have needed repositioning when upgrades in pre-amp, PSU's on nDAC, and when a 300 replaced a 250.2 were made.  Typically the speakers have to cope with more information, some of that in the bass, which can lead to the bass sounding over-blown. A speaker adjustment might cure this, and it free.  

perhaps the op should open a thread:  atc40/ nap300/ 20 m2 room: should work or overwhelming bass?    it can give new perspectives.

Guinnless posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

ROOG posted:

I did try my SU feeding a NAP 250dr at a dealer, and it worked very well. I am a intrigued as to whether or why the NAP 300 should present a significantly more difficult load to control? 

Do Naim pre outs vary in their technical specification? 

It's the other way round - NAP 300 amplifies what it is given with more ease.
So with a good pre-amp it lets it shine easily. Converse can also be true - a weaker pre-amp will be 'exposed' more easily. And this is what I think you are hearing now - NAP 300 'exposing' your source / pre-amp.

Shouldn't the dealer have advised on this mismatch?

There's dealers and then there's dealers, Guinnless, as you will have discovered.

I was going to say that all the best ones are in the Northwest of the UK    but then I thought I'd better not say that because I'd be sure to ruffle some feathers    

rjstaines posted:

There's dealers and then there's dealers, Guinnless, as you will have discovered.

I was going to say that all the best ones are in the Northwest of the UK    but then I thought I'd better not say that because I'd be sure to ruffle some feathers    

Ah, Mr. Staines!

There's a none too subtle message for you over on my post on the "patiently waiting for my NDS" thread thingy. 

How about buy the active version of the atc speakers and sell the 300 and the passives? Then work on a better source component.