atc 40/ nap 300 in 20m2

Posted by: French Rooster on 24 August 2018

Recently I was interesting myself in atc40 speakers. My room is 19 m2.  Two dealers in Paris said me that the atc40 need at minimum 30 m2 to work correctly.  If they are powered by a sufficient amp to drive them correctly, the dealers said that the bass will be overhelming in a smaller room.

A recent thread “ superuniti/ nap 300/ too much bass...” opened back my curiosity on this subject.

Has anybody tried atc 40 passive or active in a 20 m2 room?  Can it work?     This thread is more curiosity than searching answers for my system.   Thanks.

Posted on: 26 August 2018 by Patu

Yeah no problem, but all in all, don't be afraid of 20m2 room with bigger speakers. Your amplifier is world class and capable of drive pretty much any speaker with superb control and drive. 

Posted on: 26 August 2018 by Halloween Man

My room is around 17.5sqm and I run scm40 with atc p1 power amp. There is slightly too much bass (+6db at 45hz), only noticeable when playing loud on certain bass heavy tracks, not excessive with careful placement. Scm19 were a perfect fit balance wise but didn’t sound anything like as good for me so I stuck with 40. My room is particularly problematic due to suspended timber floorboards and solid brick walls near speakers. Interestingly, leaving the room door open resolves bass peak.

Id say you might be okay, it depends. With room / speaker interaction there are way too many variables and the only sure way to know is to try speakers in your room and decide if you like it or not. Some like too much bass, others too little.

hope this helps. Scm40 are special speakers.

dont make the same mistake I did and measure the room acoustics with rew software and a mic, it will drive you crazy. Just use your ears. Forget bass traps as none are effective below 100hz that are domestic room friendly.

Posted on: 26 August 2018 by JanÅ
TomSer posted:
JanÅ posted:

So tell me, what physics dictate you cant have big speakers in a small room?

Just a hint regarding the basics: sound is to be considered as a pressure wave, or mechanical wave causing energy displacement. For the rest Google and/or a local library are good friends 

No need to google, I have a Master in Physics ????

So please motivate your statement.

Posted on: 26 August 2018 by French Rooster
JanÅ posted:
TomSer posted:
JanÅ posted:

So tell me, what physics dictate you cant have big speakers in a small room?

Just a hint regarding the basics: sound is to be considered as a pressure wave, or mechanical wave causing energy displacement. For the rest Google and/or a local library are good friends 

No need to google, I have a Master in Physics ????

So please motivate your statement.

Jana, you have a master in Physics. Tomser, you teach maths and physics in high school.  You have more in common finally and should be agree.  Or perhaps are there contradictory laws in Physics?

Posted on: 26 August 2018 by Innocent Bystander
French Rooster posted:
JanÅ posted:
TomSer posted:
JanÅ posted:

So tell me, what physics dictate you cant have big speakers in a small room?

Just a hint regarding the basics: sound is to be considered as a pressure wave, or mechanical wave causing energy displacement. For the rest Google and/or a local library are good friends 

No need to google, I have a Master in Physics ????

So please motivate your statement.

Jana, you have a master in Physics. Tomser, you teach maths and physics in high school.  You have more in common finally and should be agree.  Or perhaps are there contradictory laws in Physics?

Having any given qualification in physics does not necessarily infer knowledge of understanding of acoustics, and specifically the behavoit of leoudpeakers in rooms. Arguing qualifications is pointless - better simply consider the facts.

in this case I believe JanA’s challenge is justified: as there is nothing in physics that precludes not only have big speakers in a small room, in literal terms provided that the room physically has the floor space, but also in terms of whether or not they can sound good (which in absolute terms is subjective, and nothing to do with physics), but also there is nothing in physics that says a big speaker will have any less even a frequency response compared to a small speaker, ditto re size of drivers. It is simply  a matter of  room characteristics, a speaker with  frequency response that cuts off above the main room resonances not exciting them - but also nit reproducing low notes.

Please see my own post above,

Posted on: 26 August 2018 by French Rooster
Innocent Bystander posted:
French Rooster posted:
JanÅ posted:
TomSer posted:
JanÅ posted:

So tell me, what physics dictate you cant have big speakers in a small room?

Just a hint regarding the basics: sound is to be considered as a pressure wave, or mechanical wave causing energy displacement. For the rest Google and/or a local library are good friends 

No need to google, I have a Master in Physics ????

So please motivate your statement.

Jana, you have a master in Physics. Tomser, you teach maths and physics in high school.  You have more in common finally and should be agree.  Or perhaps are there contradictory laws in Physics?

Having any given qualification in physics does not necessarily infer knowledge of understanding of acoustics, and specifically the behavoit of leoudpeakers in rooms. Arguing qualifications is pointless - better simply consider the facts.

in this case I believe JanA’s challenge is justified: as there is nothing in physics that precludes not only have big speakers in a small room, in literal terms provided that the room physically has the floor space, but also in terms of whether or not they can sound good (which in absolute terms is subjective, and nothing to do with physics), but also there is nothing in physics that says a big speaker will have any less even a frequency response compared to a small speaker, ditto re size of drivers. It is simply  a matter of  room characteristics, a speaker with  frequency response that cuts off above the main room resonances not exciting them - but also nit reproducing low notes.

Please see my own post above,

So, Mr IB, you think that speakers like Wilson Alexandria Xlf or the big Focal Grande Utopia can work in rooms like 15m2, some rooms of 15m2 with special characteristics?  For me , any room of these  dimensions can accept the bass frequencies provided by such speakers, or at very low volumes.   My opinion of course.    Or perhaps a room without windows and completely treated, but not common domestic room of these dimensions.

Posted on: 26 August 2018 by JanÅ
Innocent Bystander posted:
in this case I believe JanA’s challenge is justified: as there is nothing in physics that precludes not only have big speakers in a small room

 

Sorry if I shortened your post, but I tried to just save just the stuff I liked to comment on. All quotes and text got rather long...

Yes, nothing in physics. If it was, how is it possible to reproduce deep bass frequencies in closed headphones?

 

Posted on: 26 August 2018 by Innocent Bystander
French Rooster posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:
French Rooster posted:
JanÅ posted:
TomSer posted:
JanÅ posted:

So tell me, what physics dictate you cant have big speakers in a small room?

Just a hint regarding the basics: sound is to be considered as a pressure wave, or mechanical wave causing energy displacement. For the rest Google and/or a local library are good friends 

No need to google, I have a Master in Physics ????

 

Having any given qualification in physics does not necessarily infer knowledge of understanding of acoustics, and specifically the behaviour of loudspeakers in rooms. Arguing qualifications is pointless - better simply consider the facts.

in this case I believe JanA’s challenge is justified: as there is nothing in physics that precludes not only have big speakers in a small room, in literal terms provided that the room physically has the floor space, but also in terms of whether or not they can sound good (which in absolute terms is subjective, and nothing to do with physics), but also there is nothing in physics that says a big speaker will have any less even a frequency response compared to a small speaker, ditto re size of drivers. It is simply  a matter of  room characteristics, a speaker with  frequency response that cuts off above the main room resonances not exciting them - but also not reproducing low notes.

Please see my own post above,

So, Mr IB, you think that speakers like Wilson Alexandria Xlf or the big Focal Grande Utopia can work in rooms like 15m2, some rooms of 15m2 with special characteristics?  For me , any room of these  dimensions can accept the bass frequencies provided by such speakers, or at very low volumes.   My opinion of course.    Or perhaps a room without windows and completely treated, but not common domestic room of these dimensions.

I have no idea whether those speakers will sound any good in a 15m2 room, they might, or might not, but my point is that whether or not they do, and at any given sound level, is not by any laws of physics a function of the physical size either of the boxes or, as you specifically suggested, the bass driver. I rather suspect that few people would contemplate such large speakers in a room of this size, simply because they would be completely dominating due to the volume they occupy - but it is curious that in this question you chose particularly large speakers and shrank the size of the room, given that the topic that you originally raised was the SCM40 in a 20m2 room...

The Paris dealer advised you that the fairly modestly sized SCM40 needed a room of at least 30m2 to “work correctly”. Taking that with TomSer’s assertion about big speakers would seem to suggest that the very much larger Alexandra X1f would require a similarly much larger room - yet Stereophile magazine reported that it was capable of extremely good performance in a 29m2 room.

 

[Edited as I hadn’t registered that it was the OP who had responded to me]

Posted on: 26 August 2018 by French Rooster

Innocent Bystander, 

you wrote that no physics law precludes having big speakers in a small room.  So I choose deliberately 2 examples of big speakers.   These speakers are of course not related to my original thread.  They serve me only as an example to respond to you, because I don’t agree with what you said.    But I can’t say you are wrong and I am right.   Just I don’t feel you can be right saying that all big speakers can accommodate small rooms.   Sorry, but to me it is a non sense.   But I would appreciate to be wrong and receive logical proofs that I am wrong.

At moderate volumes, Wilson Alexandria xlf are very probably giving very good sound in a 29 m2 room. But at high volume, the sound would be probably horrible.  These speakers need more air and space to fully give their capacities.    29 m2 is also not a specially small room....

Posted on: 26 August 2018 by Mr Frog

Best advice as always, is to hear them in your own room.

Any ATC dealer worth their salt, should be more than happy to loan you a pair for a home demo - so that you can make a proper informed decision over a week or so.

Any problems and I would make contact with ATC ... they are awesome ???? 

 

 

Posted on: 26 August 2018 by French Rooster
Mr Frog posted:

Best advice as always, is to hear them in your own room.

Any ATC dealer worth their salt, should be more than happy to loan you a pair for a home demo - so that you can make a proper informed decision over a week or so.

Any problems and I would make contact with ATC ... they are awesome ???? 

 

 

Thanks Mr Frog, I appreciate.  I have some dealers here in Paris and perhaps I will borrow one pair some day.  For now I am just curious and not in a hurry.

Posted on: 27 August 2018 by Innocent Bystander
French Rooster posted:

Innocent Bystander, 

you wrote that no physics law precludes having big speakers in a small room.  So I choose deliberately 2 examples of big speakers.   These speakers are of course not related to my original thread.  They serve me only as an example to respond to you, because I don’t agree with what you said.    But I can’t say you are wrong and I am right.   Just I don’t feel you can be right saying that all big speakers can accommodate small rooms.   Sorry, but to me it is a non sense.   But I would appreciate to be wrong and receive logical proofs that I am wrong.

At moderate volumes, Wilson Alexandria xlf are very probably giving very good sound in a 29 m2 room. But at high volume, the sound would be probably horrible.  These speakers need more air and space to fully give their capacities.    29 m2 is also not a specially small room....

Whilst I did say that there is no law of physics precluding big speakers in small rooms, I have not said big speakers will sound good - and I think it should be clear from all that I said that whether or not they would ‘work’ would depend on the room, the placement of speakers and listening position, and the listener’s preferences. But what you have responded to is my follow up to your comment about two differnt apparent references to laws of physics, and my associated challenge of TomSer’s disagreement with JanA’s assertion that big speakers could be made to work well in small rooms, which TomSer claimed was confirmed by ‘doing the math’, and also his/her relating of suitability in room to size of bass driver.

The second and third paragraphs of my first post above were answering your query, so rather than focussing on the discussion about the laws of physics, perhaps it is worth re-reading that part in conjunction with Mr Frog’s, Halloween Man’s, Patu’s and SPE’s contributions, people who have had successful experience of the SCM40 (or larger model) in similarly or smaller sized rooms to yours. 

Incidentally, you didn’t respond to the question about the actual dimensions of your room - as has been indicated, a square room is more challenging than a rectangular one.

Posted on: 27 August 2018 by French Rooster

My room is about 5,5 m X 3,5m.   If you read all the thread, Mr Innocent Bystander, I took into consideration all the responses by the members here.   The second fact, as I said, is that I opened this thread more by curiosity than by wanting now to change my speakers.

And finally, without offense, if I want to discuss the laws of physics, it’s my choice.

I understood your comments also, thanks for clarifying.

Posted on: 27 August 2018 by Innocent Bystander
French Rooster posted:

My room is about 5,5 m X 3,5m.   If you read all the thread, Mr Innocent Bystander, I took into consideration all the responses by the members here.   The second fact, as I said, is that I opened this thread more by curiosity than by wanting now to change my speakers.

And finally, without offense, if I want to discuss the laws of physics, it’s my choice.

I understood your comments also, thanks for clarifying.

No offence taken! The “laws of physics” were raised by others, I just sought to set the facts straight.

Your room is at least not square, if rather on the narrow side. I successfully used IMF RSPM speakers - rather larger and with deeper bass capability -  in a room of similar dimensions (4.9x3.56m) . But maybe I prefer my bass fuller than you.