Out with the old, in with the new?

I’d slow down and simplify; but that’s just me.  It is all fun.

Some have “arrived” at NAC72/140 or 180, delighted, after more exotic places.

Which is not to say “don’t keep us posted”, mind.

Cheers.

Nick

You're in quite a difficult posistion because without having the older units serviced at quite considerable cost you won't know if it is that, that is holding them back against the new amps.

Personally I would look at it this way if you are going to with the NDX2 then I would try to match it with up to date amps so 282/250DR. I think synergy where possible is key with Naim so your 72/HC/250 is designed and tuned to be used with a vinyl source and will sound better that way.

NDX2/282/HC/250DR and LP12/72/HC/250 are two excellent systems to choose from good luck. For what it is worth I picked a 102/180 oveer 282/300 not because it was better because it wasn't but it was more enjoyable with a turntable it might have been different if I'd an NDX2 in front.

Interesting, the NDX2 is supposed to be very special and is arguably Naim’s second best streamer after the ND555. ( Naim have learnt a lot about EM interference decoupling over the earlier NDX/NDS streamers)

as far as upgrades, I always suggest with Naim it’s best to get the best NAC you can afford, as it brings the rest of the system along with it. I think you might be gobsmacked with a used 252 with the NDX2. (Given your comment, that I recognise,  about greater clarity but being occasionally slightly anemic with the 282) I’d be tempted to leave amp and speakers alone if currently working well for you.

I demoed the NDX2 with XPSDr last week with a 252/SC and it sounded really very good. Tried with a 552.....just did not work for me or the dealer, perhaps the 552 demands a better source.

Interesting I find the 552 is ambivalent on source and is the least demanding NAC. (That’s why it’s so great for the enthusiast)   I would have been tempted to remove the PSU and/or tried alternate ones and focus on other things. Certainly with my 552 I prefer my CDX2 native... 

Brilliant ALLEY CAT is thinking of upgrading a Nova to an NDX2 and now we have him buying NDX2/252/250DR or NDX2/552/250DR. Better phone up the mortgage adviser ALLEY CAT.

Back in the day I used to own the 72/HiCap/180 into Epos 14s on their dedicated open frame stands.

Agree with you about the speakers - they were absolutely brilliant. Closest modern equivalent might be one of the Harbeth or Spendor models of that size.

Anyway, glad to read your comments about the NDX2 as I'm awaiting delivery of mine!

Cheers!

I guess it depends on if the Nova is staying, add a power amp, two boxes. Boom, not too expensive. Use the Nova as a second system and NDX2 and SN2 (2 boxes), or pre and power amp (3 boxes, bigger mortgage).

Morning Alley Cat

I currently have LP12 (Kore, Cirkus, Khan, Tranquilly, Ittock VII) into 282/HCDR/300DR (stageline for LP12) and other source is NDX (2014)

for me the 300DR & LP12 needs a more detailed source than NOVA to reall get the most out of the system, the 282/300Dr work beautifully with each other and both of my sources - I don't stream so I radio and UpNP

I also have the NDX2 in my thoughts and having heard it twice now at my dealers so some decisions to make for me also

Lots of options and you are doing the demos

Enjoy the search

If it were me, I’d get the 72, HiCap and a 250 serviced. If you use Class A in Sheffield it’s cheaper than Naim and done to the same standard. This will transform the current setup and will provide a baseline. Should you then decide to sell them you should recover the service cost in the sale price. 

You can then try an NDX2 into the newly serviced olives and see what it does, and how much better than the Nova it is. 

From there, you may want to try other amplifiers. But do it is easy steps and you’ll know what is doing what. It’s easy to throw money at the system and to spend more than you planned, and you need to avoid that. I’d also try to settle on the SBL or the Epos, and active or passive. Having too many options is too confusing and distracts from the point of the system, which is simply to enable you to enjoy your music. It’s cconfusing to me anyway, but I’m easily confused. 

Yes, I'd not write of the 72 centred system either. It was sold with plenty of CD 3.5 and even CDI digital sources so being comfortable with vinyl, as has been suggested, doesn't fly with me.

When was your LP-12 last services? What does it sit on? The Tiger Paw Tranquillity is a lot of VFM and easily auditioned.

Source first. Yeah, I know it's not what you asked, but it's a lot of bang for the buck.

NickSeattle posted:

I’d slow down and simplify; but that’s just me.  It is all fun.

Some have “arrived” at NAC72/140 or 180, delighted, after more exotic places.

Which is not to say “don’t keep us posted”, mind.

Cheers.

Nick

 

Thanks Nick, but I guess I did slow down for 20 years or so when I got the active SBLs.

Back then I really wanted a NAC 52 but couldn't really justify it financially.  I can't even remember what lay in between the 72 and the 52 at that stage, as Naim equipment numbering to me is not the most logical or intuitive apart from the NAPs - I suspect I shall be shown the light and corrected on this :-)

72 -> 102 -> 82 -> 52 is the “generally accepted” hierarchy. Although 102 vs 82 has been a bone of contention in some quarters........as has  72 vs 102...........and even 72 vs 82! However the 52 is generally seen as a “good thing”, whereas the 92 was the budget model.

Well, that should clear things up.................................

Alley Cat posted:

NickSeattle posted:

I’d slow down and simplify; but that’s just me.  It is all fun.

Some have “arrived” at NAC72/140 or 180, delighted, after more exotic places.

Which is not to say “don’t keep us posted”, mind.

Cheers.

Nick

 

Thanks Nick, but I guess I did slow down for 20 years or so when I got the active SBLs.

Back then I really wanted a NAC 52 but couldn't really justify it financially.  I can't even remember what lay in between the 72 and the 52 at that stage, as Naim equipment numbering to me is not the most logical or intuitive apart from the NAPs - I suspect I shall be shown the light and corrected on this :-)

The 82 was the model between the 72 and 52 at that point. The original pre-amp numbering scheme was pretty simple, the 1st 2 channel pre was the NAC 12, the second was the 22,the third was the 32 and so on. The order went a bit awry when the 52 launch was seriously delayed and it actually came out after the 62 and 72. The 32 and 42 had a major uplift to become the 32.5 and 42.5. Doesn’t help a lot in knowing much about their relative merits I agree.

Bob the Builder posted:

You're in quite a difficult posistion because without having the older units serviced at quite considerable cost you won't know if it is that, that is holding them back against the new amps.

Personally I would look at it this way if you are going to with the NDX2 then I would try to match it with up to date amps so 282/250DR. I think synergy where possible is key with Naim so your 72/HC/250 is designed and tuned to be used with a vinyl source and will sound better that way.

NDX2/282/HC/250DR and LP12/72/HC/250 are two excellent systems to choose from good luck. For what it is worth I picked a 102/180 oveer 282/300 not because it was better because it wasn't but it was more enjoyable with a turntable it might have been different if I'd an NDX2 in front.

That's interesting, and the reason I got the 72/250 originally with the Epos ES14s was that it was a classic combo and sounded utterly brilliant with vinyl compared to an old Linn Intek integrated I'd used at University (generous bank manager in those days!).

You're spot on with the comment on servicing or not - the Naim equipment has lasted well and I can't think of any other product bar the LP12 I can get serviced or updated so many years down the line.  I think I'll get them serviced anyway as the Naim prices I'm quoted don't seem bad at all (wish there was an official Naim price list somewhere!).

I'm not necessarily going for the NDX2 at the moment, but spontaneity plays a big part in my purchases - always wanted a good Naim streamer but held off for years - as I'd had some work done in the house (and some things remain in progress) I was excited to see the new Atom had arrived at the local dealer's and got the Atom as a lifestyle device until I got the AV room back in shape - primarily as it was soon after release and the dealer had one in stock.  I had an issue with a faulty display after a short period of time so the Atom was RMA'd - the dealer by this time had Novas in stock so I just had to do an A/B, convinced the Nova added a lot, and thought sod it and got the Nova - both fine devices (ignoring my preference for earlier firmware on the Nova).

As the Nova was a big step up I wondered if I could use it as a source/pre and soon added one of my older NAP 250s that had been used for the active SBLs - naturally more authority but also warmer suiting my listening preferences on the whole.

Next resurrected my LP12 (I'd lost the platter believe it or not, don't ask), and thought it sounded pretty amazing through the Nova's analogue inputs - started buying new LPs and reissues...

At this point the head scratching and upgradeitis began - vinyl trumped digital but I was comparing apples with oranges cost wise - the Nova's streamer at best might be the equivalent of a £2000 streamer, I wasn't getting the value of the in-built power-amp - maybe I should have got a NAC-N 272 and used passive or active to Epos or SBLs???

Fast forward a few months and was now wondering how much DR NAPs offered - serendipity again as I could home demo a 250 DR and 300DR.

250 DR - very impressive, next for the 300 DR...

300 DR - oh, how the hell do I connect it to the Nova? ....found old NAC 72, Hi-Cap and solution found....BUT it sounded very soft and not that inspiring - unserviced old equipment or something else to blame?

No line level out from the Nova to the 72 so a compromise using the variable level Nova pre-outs perhaps?

A couple of chats with the dealer and they had a NAC 282 which would potentially help - huge improvement.  Trouble was they had an NDX 2 which had just arrived and I just had to demo it as well.

Admittedly far too many changes but these home demos really help.

Suzy Wong posted:

72 -> 102 -> 82 -> 52 is the “generally accepted” hierarchy. Although 102 vs 82 has been a bone of contention in some quarters........as has  72 vs 102...........and even 72 vs 82! However the 52 is generally seen as a “good thing”, whereas the 92 was the budget model.

Well, that should clear things up.................................

 

Makes sense - I strongly suspect the 72/250 was the sweet spot cost wise at the time and not wanting to do incremental upgrades I just decided not to go for the 52 as I was perfectly happy with the 72 when I went active.

Eoink posted:

Alley Cat posted:

NickSeattle posted:

I’d slow down and simplify; but that’s just me.  It is all fun.

Some have “arrived” at NAC72/140 or 180, delighted, after more exotic places.

Which is not to say “don’t keep us posted”, mind.

Cheers.

Nick

 

Thanks Nick, but I guess I did slow down for 20 years or so when I got the active SBLs.

Back then I really wanted a NAC 52 but couldn't really justify it financially.  I can't even remember what lay in between the 72 and the 52 at that stage, as Naim equipment numbering to me is not the most logical or intuitive apart from the NAPs - I suspect I shall be shown the light and corrected on this :-)

The 82 was the model between the 72 and 52 at that point. The original pre-amp numbering scheme was pretty simple, the 1st 2 channel pre was the NAC 12, the second was the 22,the third was the 32 and so on. The order went a bit awry when the 52 launch was seriously delayed and it actually came out after the 62 and 72. The 32 and 42 had a major uplift to become the 32.5 and 42.5. Doesn’t help a lot in knowing much about their relative merits I agree.

Thanks Eoink - I wonder if the current numbering is designed to reflect this as again the 282 sits below the 252.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Interesting, the NDX2 is supposed to be very special and is arguably Naim’s second best streamer after the ND555. ( Naim have learnt a lot about EM interference decoupling over the earlier NDX/NDS streamers)

as far as upgrades, I always suggest with Naim it’s best to get the best NAC you can afford, as it brings the rest of the system along with it. I think you might be gobsmacked with a used 252 with the NDX2. (Given your comment, that I recognise,  about greater clarity but being occasionally slightly anemic with the 282) I’d be tempted to leave amp and speakers alone if currently working well for you.

 

Many thanks Simon

I shall probably regret not trying a better NAC many moons ago.

Not sure if other people share the trait but I like to repurpose things and am very poor at trading them in - I have at least 3 olive Hi-Caps and I could repurpose two with a NAC 282 but not a NAC 252.

Ultimately however I think I've been considering the NAC 252 for a few months, and the NAC 282 has impressed me, it just happens the dealer had a NAC 282 for me to try and I'd be very happy with it as an interim measure.

I'm leaving the speakers as they are until I can summon the energy to get the SBLs out of storage and reconfigure the active set up as one of the old olive 250s definitely needs servicing!

Tha amp side of things is tricky - easy if I remain with a passive speaker as I'd happily go 250 DR or even 300DR - if I resurrect the SBLs (please someone tell me I need to do so soon!), I'd need to recap the olive NAP 250s as a minimum, but if i wanted to add some DR I'd need the current SNAXO to allow me to potentially mix old/new, unless I got two new NAPs.

Bob the Builder posted:

Brilliant ALLEY CAT is thinking of upgrading a Nova to an NDX2 and now we have him buying NDX2/252/250DR or NDX2/552/250DR. Better phone up the mortgage adviser ALLEY CAT.

:-)

Well the Nova was really a stop-gap until I got my active olive system out of storage - what it has done is re-ignited my passion for hi-fi generally which is brilliant, few other things in life bring such pleasure to our accursed souls...

Apart from the obvious ones anyway....

Guitarplayer posted:

Back in the day I used to own the 72/HiCap/180 into Epos 14s on their dedicated open frame stands.

Agree with you about the speakers - they were absolutely brilliant. Closest modern equivalent might be one of the Harbeth or Spendor models of that size.

Anyway, glad to read your comments about the NDX2 as I'm awaiting delivery of mine!

Cheers!

Bold text - yes I have those very same stands, clunky but effective!

This demo NDX 2 has only been run in for a couple of days at the shop, but it's bowled me over.

I'll use the Carol Kidd 'Nice Work' album (Linn hi-res download) as an example and I'm suddenly experiencing not a singer with backing session players but a singer that I can envisage making facial expressions as she sings such are the nuances that come through in the voice, but not only that I now have a vocalist with several backing musicians I can locate discretely combining effortlessly as a whole, and they're playing so many notes compared to before - may sound odd but I know this album backwards and it's convinced me that despite having had high quality playback in the past, there is far more to be had from analogue or digital sources.

Alley Cat posted:

Bob the Builder posted:

Brilliant ALLEY CAT is thinking of upgrading a Nova to an NDX2 and now we have him buying NDX2/252/250DR or NDX2/552/250DR. Better phone up the mortgage adviser ALLEY CAT.

:-)

Well the Nova was really a stop-gap until I got my active olive system out of storage - what it has done is re-ignited my passion for hi-fi generally which is brilliant, few other things in life bring such pleasure to our accursed souls...

Apart from the obvious ones anyway....

Music is a constant in all out lives and is entwined with our memories and emotions so much that it is so important and to hear new things in old tunes made clear by new and better equipment is one of my real pleasures.

Bob the Builder posted:

Alley Cat posted:

Bob the Builder posted:

Brilliant ALLEY CAT is thinking of upgrading a Nova to an NDX2 and now we have him buying NDX2/252/250DR or NDX2/552/250DR. Better phone up the mortgage adviser ALLEY CAT.

:-)

Well the Nova was really a stop-gap until I got my active olive system out of storage - what it has done is re-ignited my passion for hi-fi generally which is brilliant, few other things in life bring such pleasure to our accursed souls...

Apart from the obvious ones anyway....

Music is a constant in all out lives and is entwined with our memories and emotions so much that it is so important and to hear new things in old tunes made clear by new and better equipment is one of my real pleasures.

I think only olfactory memories are more powerful - that old girlfriend's perfume as you pass a stranger, the smell of rain after a dry spell, seasonal flowers, food, danger such as smoke - all evoke deep memories. 

I think that the one-box solutions are great. Ive listened to a SuperUniti, and own a Qute2. As great as the various one-box solutions are, I do think it's a mistake to try to make them the core (no pun intended) of a multi-box system.  They run out of "it".  Using them as a pre-amp into a 250 or 300, along with an NDX2??  Sure as a stepping-stone with intent to acquire a NAC, but short of that...I don't think it's the way to build a coherent system.  At all.  

Bart posted:

I think that the one-box solutions are great. Ive listened to a SuperUniti, and own a Qute2. As great as the various one-box solutions are, I do think it's a mistake to try to make them the core (no pun intended) of a multi-box system.  They run out of "it".  Using them as a pre-amp into a 250 or 300, along with an NDX2??  Sure as a stepping-stone with intent to acquire a NAC, but short of that...I don't think it's the way to build a coherent system.  At all.  

I entirely agree Bart but that's not really what I'm testing.

I was initially comparing 250 DR and 300 DR to my old olive 250.

Soon realised that the Nova could not easily hook up to the 300DR whidh I wanted to try in case the 250 DR was not uch of an improvement over the old 250.

Next had to find my older NAC 72 /HiCap to hook up Nova as a source of kinds in order to supply signal tot he 300DR.

I was really lacking a modern NAC to compare to my old unserviced NAC 72which may have been rate limiting so borrowed a NAC 282.

The NDX 2 just happened to be in store so that is playing through NAC 282 to NAP 300 DR to my Epos speakers and it sounds pretty darned good.