UNITY CORE vs ROON

Unless you want to rip loads and loads of CDs a Core seems pointless. When I had a UnitiServe in the past - the predecessor to the Core - I found that a NAS with upnp server sounded better. You don’t say where you store your music, maybe the Transporter does that, but it’s worth trying a Synology or Qnap running Minim or Asset. Then again, lots of Roon users swear by it as a good way to serve your music. 

I can actually store my music just about anywhere.  I have a small NAS, my Mac and the Sonic Transporter.  I have tried Minimserver but not Asset.  I will try to load ASSET on my Synology NAS and see how that goes.  I may just be spoiled by Roon....

There is a beta of Asset for Synology that you can try; up till recently it has not been available for Synology. Certainly as you already have a nas a Core seems an unnecessary expenditure. For its price you could upgrade the Atom to a Nova, which really would be a sonic improvement. 

BOBFA, hi, I've done both.  Started with the UnitiServe.  Then sold it off and moved to a nas running MinimServer or Asset (I prefer Asset for the way you can control the data, but I'd be fine with either.)  Because I bought an ND555 I had the chance to try Roon.  I installed Roon Core on an unused Macbook Pro and point it to the music on my nas.

Of all these options, Roon is #1 for me and I've ordered a i5 Sonic Transporter to run Core on.  (The Macbook isn't ideal but it does work.)

The Naim server software + Naim App is just much more limited; the way Roon pulls down its own metadata and information about your music I find to be fantastic.  I rather like the UI of Roon on an iPad! I'm sticking with it.

Interestingly, my local hi fi shop who years ago sold custom PC's for their clients to run J River are totally pushing Roon now as well.  For me it's the right solution.

bart,

I really like Roon and I am just fussing about keeping the extra hardware running.  I should not do that "sunk cost" and all that.  I "want" UPnP to work for me but really Roon is worth the cost.  

Now Nova vs Atom that is another thing.  Maybe I will start another thread on that one.....  

Bobfa posted:

bart,

I really like Roon and I am just fussing about keeping the extra hardware running.  I should not do that "sunk cost" and all that.  I "want" UPnP to work for me but really Roon is worth the cost.  

 

Now Nova vs Atom that is another thing.  Maybe I will start another thread on that one.....  

You COULD put a big enough ssd in the Sonic Transporter that you use it as your server and music store.  Then just use the nas as a backup destination.  My Transporter is on order with a 2tb hhd and I'm probably going to do that.  But I hear what you mean; adding yet another device is not ideal.

I agree with HH, in terms of cost, Core + Atom = Nova, and you already have the hardware to run that, with or without Roon, and to store and serve your music files.

The Core IS a UPnP server, so if you are unhappy with other servers, I don't think there is much to gain from it in terms of sound quality. My experience of UPnP servers is that they can have subtle effects on sound quality, possibly not even noticeable on some systems. Certainly not big enough differences to justify the £2k price tag on sound quality alone.

Ultimately, if you like the way Roon works, maybe that is the best solution for you. A lot of what you are paying for is stuff like DSP, parametric EQ, and other stuff that you may not need. Personally, I'm happy to stick with UPnP and the Naim app, but we are all different.

Then again, how big is your music collection? It could be that all you need is a USB drive plugged into the Atom/Nova, switch on server mode, and let it run the Naim server itself rather than on the Core. No other boxes or software required. 

I have 70K tracks in my library so I cannot direct attach the Drive to the Atom.  I will play with UPnP a bit more to see how I feel over time.  

I guess am spoiled by Roon.....  

Lots of things to try!  Thank you all for listening!

Bobfa posted:

I have 70K tracks in my library so I cannot direct attach the Drive to the Atom.

Yes, that could be a bit optimistic given that Naim say up to 20k tracks, although this is not a hard and fast limit, so who knows? If I was starting out now, I'd probably look at a QNAP NAS running Asset.

I am setting up Asset on my iMac as a test.  I have it pointed at my master library.   I have a little test Synology NAS I use for customer training and demos.  it uses 2.5 in drives DS416slim.  I am using it to try MinimServer and the audio server from Synology.   There is only 4Tb on my 416 but I own it!!!  

Asset testing next..

Thanks

Bobfa posted:

I have recently purchased a Unity Atom.  I am re-thinking my server software/hardware. I have a Sonic Transporter (I5) and it is currently running Roon.  I am "interested" in moving to the Unity Core.  I have been testing other UPnP sever software and I find them mostly slow or unreliable.  

I really would like to just use the NAIM app and be done with other software.  Roon is really great but it adds complexity.  

What are folks thoughts on the sound quality from the CORE vs other servers?

How does the CORE perform vs Roon or UPnP?

 

Bob

Why don’t you just use Minim Server which is already installed on your Sonic Transporter, or better yet, simply continue to use Roon, since it’s compatible with your Atom?

I have not tried minimserver on the ST.  I will be doing that today.  I have been running both minim and Asset on my Mac and the performace is terrible.  You click on things and it takes 30 seconds for anything to happen.  There are all kinds of in escapable delays.  I have the MAC and the Atom on Wired Ethernet.  

I have roon all set to go but I am due to re-subscribe and I am thinking about the lifetime......   

I will keep playing.

I am going to use Roon.  I really like it and there is something just not working for me with any of the UpnP servers.  I get these horrible delays.  Click on a folder or an album and it takes 30 seconds to open.  OR longer.  I have tried three server variants, on three platforms and they all work badly.  Everything is on Wired networks So I do not get it.  I am using an iPhone 10 or two different iPads.  Really weird.

It will come down to what platforms you have tried. If they are low powered/ram then like all computing things it might drag a bit

also in my experience if you have cover art within the folders that is large or high resolution this can cause issues

We use Asset on quite a powerful Qnap and it’s pretty well instant. The Qnap also hosts Bubble upnp, which allows Qobuz streaming in very good quality. Regarding Roon, if you like it and it works for you, that’s all that matters. 

I moved from UPnP from my Mac to a UC2 to a Core and Nova. I’ve then run music to the Nova from the Core (new rips) and compared them to the same tracks on the Mac and the SQ is better. Also, the reliability and UI of the Core is much better than UPnP from the Mac. It’s probally priorities, as HH says, going to a Nova and using your current sources is going to give you better audio than an Atom and Core. A Core can always be added to the Nova later if that’s of interest to you.

I have Asset UPnP server running on a dedicated RPi2, running a lean OS, for use with the Naim iOS App with my NDS.

I also have an Intel NUC running ROCK, for a Roon Core (very easy to install & setup), through a Sonore UPnP Bridge to the NDS. The bridge runs on a Sonore UltraRendu, and plays a bitperfect stream directly into the UPnP input of the NDS.

So I have both options - I can use the Naim App or Roon Remote on my iPad, iPhone etc

I was not happy with UI/UX on the Naim App or the development focus given to playback via Uniti Core.

Use of Roon wins all the time now with better UI & artist/album metadata, equal or better SQ 

Bobfa posted:

I can actually store my music just about anywhere.  I have a small NAS, my Mac and the Sonic Transporter.  I have tried Minimserver but not Asset.  I will try to load ASSET on my Synology NAS and see how that goes.  I may just be spoiled by Roon....

Asset works well on a Mac too if you are happy to leave it powered up (my Mini generally is).

hungryhalibut posted:

Unless you want to rip loads and loads of CDs a Core seems pointless. When I had a UnitiServe in the past - the predecessor to the Core - I found that a NAS with upnp server sounded better. You don’t say where you store your music, maybe the Transporter does that, but it’s worth trying a Synology or Qnap running Minim or Asset. Then again, lots of Roon users swear by it as a good way to serve your music. 

Is there any different in terms of sound between a nas or a pc streaming my music  to my nds?,at that moment I use a regular pc ,and have doubts to buy a nas, need your answer...thanks

That is a great question.  I have tested multiple music servers and systems delivering music to the stereo.  As of right now for me Roon Software seems to have the upper hand on delivering music to my system from my library and Tidal better than any other method with better sound quality.  (For ME)

There is a very very long set of threads over on Computer Audiophile about music servers and digital delivery of music.  Let me summarize my testing and observations.

1. Getting the computer away from the music system is better than having it there.

2. Removing electrical noise from the server is good. No Fans, better power supplies, dedicated operating systems. 

3. USB to a DAC is a minefield.  Get the noise down there and you will have better sound.

4. People spend many many thousands of dollars on music severs.  Some of them really make a difference.

My experience. (Main system is a Ayre AX-5 Twenty, driven by an Schiit Yggdrasil.  The cabling is all transparent Super).  I have an UpTone Audio JS-2 running my UltraRendu and my ISOREGEN.  With this system I have been able to test several methods of delivering files to the DAC.  I started with a Mac Mini and they upgraded the Mini to remove the Power Supply and fan.  Next I tried keeping the Music on a NAS and running just the roon core on the server.  Finally I have moved to a Sonic Transporter and all the music on the server.  Each step of the way the sound is different.  I have one more step and that is to change the networking configuration with a different Sonic Transporter.  My current one need to be upgraded for storage and to allow me to play with room correction in Roon.  WHEW. 

So my advice is a fan less dedicated music server not in the room with the stereo with some sort of NAA in the music system.

Also check out the HB Project on YouTube for some more info.

Bob Fairbairn

So I have decided to upgrade my music server to a new version for Roon and I paid for the Roon lifetime license.  I have a Small Green Computer Sonic Transporter I7 for Roon DSP on order.  

I would like to thank everyone for all their help and observations.

I can concur, get the music storage & server for Roon Core (the ‘back-end’) out away from the ‘front-end’. Anything within the ‘front-end’ should be minimal processing, e.g. just transcoding of FLAC to WAV, protocol Bridges, NAA devices, run on dedicated embedded devices in low noise environments, with quality power supplies & cabling. Makes for inky blacks, good transient response & controlled/tight bass allowing good musicality, transparency & sound stage to come through.

A NAS is still good for music storage used a collection of discs, allowing generic computer hardware and HDD to be used, along with standard off-the-shelf NUCs, RAM & SSD components for ROCK. This is Roon Optimised Core Kit, and runs a very lean, headless server, that needs no attention once up & running. All elements consume little power & energy, and are available at all times.

Simon

Simon I can concur but I have one worry about the NUC.  Many of them have a PWM fan that makes a lot of electrical noise.  I do not know if they have an effect on sound quality.  I KNOW that the PWF fan in my Mac mini did....

I have a NUC5i3 which only has a 15w TDP in a tall NUC case, so doesn’t generate any heat so I have never detected the fan coming on. Plus the stream is going through two network switches by the time it gets from the backend to frontend.

I am running both the main NAS, NUC and network switches on Linear Power supplies.

As ROCK runs virtually headless, with only a simple console type output, when you connect a monitor, to tell it is running, so there is no GPU usage either.

It may be different if you go for a i7 device, which pumps the heat out. But do you need that level of processing?

I don’t run any DSP, only getting the Roon Server to serve the files in their native stored format.

The UPnP Bridge running on the UltraRendu, transcodes all PCM formats to WAV, and any dsf files as DSD64 using DoP. The UltraRendu is powered by the UpTone UltraCap LPS 1

thanks, Simon

It sounds like you have it managed well.  My new I7 based server is fanless but it will have a spinning drive.  There has been a lot of talk about SSD being noisier due to peak current flows.  I am not ready to go there yet!. The first reason is to play with ROON DSP room correction.  One of the other reasons for the new Sonic Transporter is to play with bridged networking where the NAA; in my case the ultraRendu does not go through any switches.  This is a fun hobby but we sometimes go to extremes.???  When I did bridging on my Mac Mini there was a difference.  (The Mac mini is out of the system do to the pain of managing MacOS updates, etc..)  Roon Rock or the Sonic Transporter OS sort of take care of themselves.  Rock even more so.

I am not going to fuss over server power supplies till I play with the Ethernet switch that UpTone audio has pre-announced.  And I really need to think about a speaker upgrade for my B&W 804S speakers.