DSD or PCM on ND555 , which is PCM1704K based ?

TomSer posted:

What about “old” records offered in both PCM and DSD (SACD)?
Is it interesting to rip the DSD layer and enjoy it through the ND555?
I’m thinking about many Jordi Savall records I like a lot, and which are SACDs.

Do you have the means to rip the DSD layer from these discs? A regular CD drive/ripper can extract only the 16/44 layer that is normally included on an SACD. There is a sneaky way to rip the DSD layer using an old Sony Playstation with a specific software version, now long discontinued. Perhaps there is now another way to do this that I'm not aware of, but if not, you can only listen to them with an SACD player.

ChrisSU posted:

Do you have the means to rip the DSD layer from these discs? A regular CD drive/ripper can extract only the 16/44 layer that is normally included on an SACD. There is a sneaky way to rip the DSD layer using an old Sony Playstation with a specific software version, now long discontinued. Perhaps there is now another way to do this that I'm not aware of, but if not, you can only listen to them with an SACD player.

Indeed, I bought an old PS3 (with the correct firmware) in order to rip the DSD layer of my "old" SACDs.

TomSer posted:

I’m planning to purchase the ND555 and was wondering about its capabilities of reading DSD format. More precisely, how is the DoP implemented in this new system?

The following thread is very interesting btw:
https://forums.naimaudio.com/t...ly=49295588623807629

ND555 is able to read up to DSD-128 (through DoP, which seems to be lossy).

Many records are now offered in PCM 24bits/192kHz and sometimes even 352,8 kHz.

In the context of the ND555 and PCM, does DSD still make sense for new records?

What about “old” records offered in both PCM and DSD (SACD)?
Is it interesting to rip the DSD layer and enjoy it through the ND555?
I’m thinking about many Jordi Savall records I like a lot, and which are SACDs.

Cheers,

Thomas

On my NDS I didn`t like the DSD sound,it sound cleaner but lifeless, I prefer the PCM HD more dynamic and realistic

I've only listened to a handful of classical albums in DSD on my NDX, and they sound rather good, but I haven't heard enough to make an informed judgement.

As far as I'm aware, the ND555 has a similar DSD implementation to the old Naim streamers. For what it's worth, what they say about the ND555 is:

" Because the ND 555’s PCM1704 DAC chips are not DSD compatible, DSD signals are transcoded to PCM within the DSP. First the DSD signal is downsampled to 352.8kHz, 40-bit floating point PCM and low-pass filtered to remove DSD’s noise-shaped ultrasonic quantisation noise. Then it is upsampled to 705.6kHz/24-bit for passing to the DAC stage."

Make of that what you will! I guess your ears will be the final judge.

Correct me if I am wrong .... but I think the dsd data stream is converted to pcm then outputted..... so do I take it you are better off with hi res pcm.... ????

I think  [@mention:1566878603876589]  answered my first question three years ago.

https://forums.naimaudio.com/t...89#49295588613296389

Considering the lossy conversion needed and the inevitable noise induced, the answer is probably : PCM suits best Naim's DACs, including ND555, especially for 24/192 records.

Now, question is : what about the DSD layer of SACDs. Even with a lossy DoP conversion does the DSD layer sound best?

I suppose it depends on how the recording was achieved.

One can also suppose that many of these SACDs were recorded using PCM technology, which makes mastering tweaks easier, then converted to DSD in order to make/sell SACDs. One could then question the quality of the DSD layer of those SACDs.

TomSer posted:

I think  [@mention:1566878603876589]  answered my first question three years ago.

https://forums.naimaudio.com/t...89#49295588613296389

Considering the lossy conversion needed and the inevitable noise induced, the answer is probably : PCM suits best Naim's DACs, including ND555, especially for 24/192 records.

Yes, it looks as if this argument still applies to the ND555. 

If you have a significant collection of DSDs, perhaps you need to find a DAC that can play them natively, if only to satisfy your curiosity, for comparison with the 555.

Naim do not even do native DSD on products with DAC chips that support it such as the NDX. DSD cannot have DSP applied to it (at least not easily or without studio DSD processing equipment) which would bypass a key component of what makes Naim streamers sound the way they do. 

Hence, regardless of the chips employed, transcoding to PCM is likely to continue to be the approach of choice.

Indeed, however it’s worth noting the Naim streamers output DSD via the SPDIF interface via DoP... which means the native DSD is maintained... so in theory if you really liked the ND555 PCM1704K for PCM, but found the limitations of its DSD conversion less than compelling... then you could use another separate DSD optimised DAC fed by your ND555 for just your DSD playbacks.... yet another use for our NAC inputs 

TomSer posted:

.... Even with a lossy DoP conversion does the DSD layer sound best?

Hi Tom, you might have got confused. DoP is DSD data packaged with in stereo 24 PCM data framing. There is no conversion, DoP is pure un modified DSD. 

The process of converting DSD data to PCM data is lossy... and that is something separate and will be achieved by a DAC or it’s inline signal processor which is how Naim do it.

feeling_zen posted:

Naim do not even do native DSD on products with DAC chips that support it such as the NDX. DSD cannot have DSP applied to it (at least not easily or without studio DSD processing equipment) 

Not so.. almost all DSD reconstruction relies on  DSP (low pass filtering) during signal reconstruction by or ahead of the Delta Sigma DAC.

i think you might find the Naim approach is more about portfolio consistency  and subsequent productisation optimisation.

I think you may be getting mixed up with mixing DSD signals say in a mixer or in recreating a master etc.. it is that that  requires involved and powerful signal processing to achieve. But yes  1 bit delta sigma signal processing is somewhat more  involved than multibit pcm processing for more advanced processing functions like room optimisation software, compression etc.