The benefits of being a dinosaur

Yes, we’ve come to the 555 from rather different directions - I have never heard any other Naim CD players apart from the CDS3, which I think is very refined and subtle but I know others were not necessarily convinced and preferred earlier CD players.

i will watch with alarm as you try a second PS! My priority is to complete the change to Fraim from Hutter - I currently have a stack of each. And my 252 is probably due a service.

Happy Listener posted:

MDS - FYI, a couple of links where the addition of & plug-in order of 555PSs has been discussed - I suspect you may already be aware of these?

BTW, I like what a 2nd 555PS does.

https://forums.naimaudio.com/t...15#48028103597372915

https://forums.naimaudio.com/t...-2-with-cd555?page=1

Thanks for the links, Happy Listener. I found it interesting to read the characteristics described, both of those who liked a second PSU and those that prefer one. What comes across to me is that the distinction between the two camps seems to be about how we like our music presented to us: one camp preferring it rather laid back, the other more forward. It reminded me of the often-repeated 282 v 252 debate.  I think I'm in the camp that prefers 'more forward', as I did with the 282.   

Gazza posted:

Clive....must have been fate. You sent an email just as my dealer turned up to do the ND555 install. Quick confirmation that they had the CD555 coming in and ......everyone happy. Great that it’s the result you were looking for.....keep us posted.

Another benefit of this place: connections made that otherwise wouldn't be. 

Gazza posted:

Clive....must have been fate. You sent an email just as my dealer turned up to do the ND555 install. Quick confirmation that they had the CD555 coming in and ......everyone happy. Great that it’s the result you were looking for.....keep us posted.

Serendipity! I’m glad I sent that email when I did!

MDS posted:

What comes across to me is that the distinction between the two camps seems to be about how we like our music presented to us: one camp preferring it rather laid back, the other more forward. It reminded me of the often-repeated 282 v 252 debate.  I think I'm in the camp that prefers 'more forward', as I did with the 282.   

I compare it to being at the front of the audience in say a jazz venue where you get the cut and thrust and bass tempo of the music straight at you (and you can feel it) as compared to the rear where, often, the music flow is smoother to the ear (well it often is to my ears). This was apparent when many years ago I went to a Kef speaker demo in a large room at a London hotel (St.John's Wood IIRC). The sound at the front was markedly different to the sound at the rear, given the energy absorption of so many bodies in between - and they were using some meaty amps.

I would encourage you to try out some of your bassier CD's as, to my ears, adding another PS can sometimes push things very slightly OTT - obviously a function of one's listening room in some cases.

Happy Listener posted:

MDS posted:

What comes across to me is that the distinction between the two camps seems to be about how we like our music presented to us: one camp preferring it rather laid back, the other more forward. It reminded me of the often-repeated 282 v 252 debate.  I think I'm in the camp that prefers 'more forward', as I did with the 282.   

I compare it to being at the front of the audience in say a jazz venue where you get the cut and thrust and bass tempo of the music straight at you (and you can feel it) as compared to the rear where, often, the music flow is smoother to the ear (well it often is to my ears). This was apparent when many years ago I went to a Kef speaker demo in a large room at a London hotel (St.John's Wood IIRC). The sound at the front was markedly different to the sound at the rear, given the energy absorption of so many bodies in between - and they were using some meaty amps.

I would encourage you to try out some of your bassier CD's as, to my ears, adding another PS can sometimes push things very slightly OTT - obviously a function of one's listening room in some cases.

A good comparison, Happy Listener.  I have in mind a few CDs with some testing bass eg Damien Rice's O and Melody Gardot's Currency of Man. In the past those have led to some readjustment in the position of my speakers so will tell me if the 2nd 555PS does too much to the bass.   

MDS: Without even factoring in your amplification, you are way behind on the speakers department. I would have imagined something much more refined, to be honest.

Dan.S posted:

MDS: Without even factoring in your amplification, you are way behind on the speakers department. I would have imagined something much more refined, to be honest.

I have toyed with trying Sopra 2s at home, which I've heard in store a few times.  I've also been tempted to demo Kudos 606 or 707s.  But I've been concentrating on 'source first' and to be honest my 1028be continue to please me and regularly surprise me with how they have stepped up every time I've made an improvement elsewhere.

I've heard Sopra 2 right before Kudos S20 and there is no comparison. In my opinion, the only way to tame that focal top end is to go tube amping, but even then you are left with a low end lagging.

You sir have at least a source to die for, most of us will only dream of. It deserves a matching front end.

MDS posted:

Dan.S posted:

MDS: Without even factoring in your amplification, you are way behind on the speakers department. I would have imagined something much more refined, to be honest.

I have toyed with trying Sopra 2s at home, which I've heard in store a few times.  I've also been tempted to demo Kudos 606 or 707s.  But I've been concentrating on 'source first' and to be honest my 1028be continue to please me and regularly surprise me with how they have stepped up every time I've made an improvement elsewhere.

I know exactly where you are coming from and my speakers could also be accused of 'lagging behind', but they continue to vividly and faithfully reveal the benefit in SQ from upgrades in source and amplification. Have always been a 'source first' bloke and that continues to give me the biggest bang for my buck.

I will of course have to attend to speakers at some point, but only when they struggle to reveal upgrades in other departments that I would reasonably expect to be apparent.

I was merely pointing out that perhaps a faster horse is not the smartest way to go. 

I hear you Dan.

MDS posted:

Dan.S posted:

MDS: Without even factoring in your amplification, you are way behind on the speakers department. I would have imagined something much more refined, to be honest.

I have toyed with trying Sopra 2s at home, which I've heard in store a few times.  I've also been tempted to demo Kudos 606 or 707s.  But I've been concentrating on 'source first' and to be honest my 1028be continue to please me and regularly surprise me with how they have stepped up every time I've made an improvement elsewhere.

Mike,

Agree about your comments about your 1028 BE's.

I have been useing Focal Profil 77's Floorstanders which are quite old models for the last 5 years. I don't think many where sold in the U.K. in my 2nd system with Bryston amplifiers.And like you I find there is something just so right about the sound to my ears.I brought them off a mate who was experimenting with a lot of speakers on the end of his Valve SET system.Before the Focal's he had some Living Voice OBX R2's and they stayed about a month and he then got the Focal Profil 77's.I remember hearing them for the first time and the Focals where way better.He then got some bigger older Focals off E Bay and sold me the Profil 77's.

I was expecting them to be really bright as I had always heard the reputation of Focal for this.I shouldn't have been as they worked a treat with my Bryston amps.I am lucky to run 2 systems at home and have swapped my Quad 2805 electrostatics with the Focals on the end of a Dartzeel NHB 108 poweramp and Nagra PLL valve preamp and the Focals where enchanting.So your comments about them responding with better source,amps rings true.

Following this thread with interest as I had a CD 555 years ago and like you did get a additional 555 PS.Loved what it did with my system the bass was much more textural and better slam.Imaging was brought into sharper focus.It was a fabulous player which I thoroughly enjoyed.Especially the seperation in the mix.It never got ruffled at all.

Unfortunately I had to free up some money and got a good deal from my local dealer.I down graded to a Nagra CDP which is no way as good as the CD 555 but it's got a very smooth sound with no digital harshness.Maybe it's the Nagra Valve preamp but the pair dovetail well.

Like you I have heard Sopra 2's at dealers and Naim events and did like them a lot.I would like to listen to the Kanta's at some point as they seem to offer a lot of speaker for the money.

Wishing you a good day

Cheers Ian  

Thanks for sharing that, Ian.  Your observations of the effects of a 2nd PSU on the CD555 I can relate to. 

Re speakers, I've heard Kanta 2s at my dealer's. I thought there were good but wasn't convinced that they would represent a step-up from my Electras.  The Kanta's had a wonderfully deep and articulate bottom end, possibly deeper than my Electras, but at the same time I felt their bottom-end had a little less punch that mine. My dealer thought this might be due to the Kanta's using flax mid and bass drivers whereas the Electras use the more expensive composite which also features in the Sopra range.  That's why, if I explore speakers, I shall start with the Sopra 2s. I'm not in any hurry though. My Electra 1028be are currently sounding sublime. Indeed my dealer remarked that it's the best he has heard them perform.  

Mike  

Mike,

Your in a really nice place with your 1028 BE's and your system as you have got it.I suppose at some point in the future you must borrow some nicely run in Sopra 2's just to satisfy your curiosity about how they will integrate at home.When I was at a Naim demo a NDS - 300 -552 - Superlumina loom sounded fabulous and to my ears the introduction of the 500 wasn't that marked.

I suppose the point I was making about my Focals's is you know there's better out there,but if they continue to respond with better sources amps.....why change a good thing. 

Spot on, Ian. 

The second 555PSDR goes back after tomorrow so I'll be interested to hear what the system does when it has just the one PSU again.  I've sometimes found that the judgement of a potential upgrade is easier to evaluate when the upgrade is withdrawn, rather than when first introduced.  The coming weekend will be interesting.    

MDS posted:

Spot on, Ian. 

The second 555PSDR goes back after tomorrow so I'll be interested to hear what the system does when it has just the one PSU again.  I've sometimes found that the judgement of a potential upgrade is easier to evaluate when the upgrade is withdrawn, rather than when first introduced.  The coming weekend will be interesting.    

Looking forward to an update.......

MDS posted:

Spot on, Ian. 

The second 555PSDR goes back after tomorrow so I'll be interested to hear what the system does when it has just the one PSU again.  I've sometimes found that the judgement of a potential upgrade is easier to evaluate when the upgrade is withdrawn, rather than when first introduced.  The coming weekend will be interesting.    

So, the PS555 went back yesterday .....and???

I promised an update on my experiences of trying a second 555PSDR on the CD555.

From the off the change was very evident: stunning bass extension, articulation and control; a further layer of detail revealed;  a bigger sound; the soundstage expanded, particularly in width. The presentation was more intensive. This was very likeable on some music eg high tempo rock because it heightened the excitement. Some rock that I’m very familiar with was the best I’ve heard it - awesome, even. 

But as the week worn on and I sampled a wide range of music different characteristics gradually became apparent. 

That initially pleasing intensity also had a slight hardness that I wondered might be less relaxing in the longer term. To say it is a tad relentless would be doing it a disservice because it still sounded excellent on some material at times but at others it felt less natural somehow.  A clumsy description, I know, but it sometimes felt a bit forced or ‘turbo-charged’. These traits became clearer to me as the week wore on. In the second half of the week I often found myself turning the volume down whereas previously, with one PSU, I was more often nudging it up.  This was perhaps telling. 

When the second 555PS was packed-up on Saturday morning I deliberately left things for a while and then sat down through late afternoon and evening to listen again using a wide range of albums. I wanted to re-baseline my impressions. I thought it would take a few days before reaching a conclusion but in the event it didn’t. Pretty much from the first album it was clear to me that while the performance with one 555PS was a bit ‘smaller’ and a bit less detailed with a less powerful bottom-end, it was now more coherent, relaxed and overall more enjoyable on a wide range of material.  This was not the result I had expected. 

So while I’m not saying that one PSU on a CD555 is better than two, in my system and listening room I find the one PSU more pleasing. 

Finally, this experience has once again demonstrated to me the value of a good dealer arranging a proper and extended home demo. Had this been an in-store or brief at home demo, the impressiveness of the second 555PS, which was immediately evident, would likely have resulted in a ‘buy’ decision.    Having an extended home demo allowed me to acclimatise to those initial positive reactions, reach past them and make on overall judgement on the enduring characteristics of the change:  allowing me in this case to conclude that a (little) less is more.   

Funny old game, is this hobby.  

MDS posted:

I promised an update on my experiences of trying a second 555PSDR on the CD555.

From the off the change was very evident: stunning bass extension, articulation and control; a further layer of detail revealed;  a bigger sound; the soundstage expanded, particularly in width. The presentation was more intensive. This was very likeable on some music eg high tempo rock because it heightened the excitement. Some rock that I’m very familiar with was the best I’ve heard it - awesome, even. 

But as the week worn on and I sampled a wide range of music different characteristics gradually became apparent. 

That initially pleasing intensity also had a slight hardness that I wondered might be less relaxing in the longer term. To say it is a tad relentless would be doing it a disservice because it still sounded excellent on some material at times but at others it felt less natural somehow.  A clumsy description, I know, but it sometimes felt a bit forced or ‘turbo-charged’. These traits became clearer to me as the week wore on. In the second half of the week I often found myself turning the volume down whereas previously, with one PSU, I was more often nudging it up.  This was perhaps telling. 

When the second 555PS was packed-up on Saturday morning I deliberately left things for a while and then sat down through late afternoon and evening to listen again using a wide range of albums. I wanted to re-baseline my impressions. I thought it would take a few days before reaching a conclusion but in the event it didn’t. Pretty much from the first album it was clear to me that while the performance with one 555PS was a bit ‘smaller’ and a bit less detailed with a less powerful bottom-end, it was now more coherent, relaxed and overall more enjoyable on a wide range of material.  This was not the result I had expected. 

So while I’m not saying that one PSU on a CD555 is better than two, in my system and listening room I find the one PSU more pleasing. 

Finally, this experience has once again demonstrated to me the value of a good dealer arranging a proper and extended home demo. Had this been an in-store or brief at home demo, the impressiveness of the second 555PS, which was immediately evident, would likely have resulted in a ‘buy’ decision.    Having an extended home demo allowed me to acclimatise to those initial positive reactions, reach past them and make on overall judgement on the enduring characteristics of the change:  allowing me in this case to conclude that a (little) less is more.   

Funny old game, is this hobby.  

Thanks for sharing your impressions. And as your rightfully said, it's your impressions in your personal setup. I think for this to work in full all other aspects need to be also perfectly aligned. And perhaps there is also an aspect of warming up of the PSU at play. I wouldn't also be surprised in case people need to change the position of the speakers while making such a change. 

Your experience with two 555PS's on a CD555 echos my own MDS. A fellow Naimite described the effect as “Chrome plating” the sound, which I think is a pretty good description.

tonym posted:

Your experience with two 555PS's on a CD555 echos my own MDS. A fellow Naimite described the effect as “Chrome plating” the sound, which I think is a pretty good description.

That's a good description, Tony.  It's reassuring to know that this isn't just me and that some others have trodden this path before.  It can be tricky when your head tells you something should be better, and your ears initially collude with your head, only later to start telling you different.  

Bert Schurink posted:

MDS posted:

.  

Thanks for sharing your impressions. And as your rightfully said, it's your impressions in your personal setup. I think for this to work in full all other aspects need to be also perfectly aligned. And perhaps there is also an aspect of warming up of the PSU at play. I wouldn't also be surprised in case people need to change the position of the speakers while making such a change. 

Thanks, Bert.  As you say, perfect alignment might have been missing in my current system.  I am though confident that the second 555PS was properly warm.  It was installed in my rack to warm up a day before it was hooked up, and being a demo unit was thoroughly run-in. Still I'm not unhappy, having saved myself about £7k.

Mike 

Thanks, Mike, a very encouraging review since I don’t think a second PS would be the best way to spend that sort of money in my system. Not that I’m planning to currently after acquiring the CD555 and PS, but a 300 would benefit both CD and LP12 playback.

Clive

I can certainly recommend the 300DR, Clive. That would be my next step if I were in your position.