Cancelled Roon Trial - what a bummer !

Innocent Bystander posted:

Timmo1341 posted:

I think the amount Roger has spent on hifi hardware is completely irrelevant in the context of this discussion. £100 is £100, and to throw it away on any product that doesn’t appear likely to give utility is an unjustified waste of money. By all means get another freebie trial period if possible, but I suggest if it were going to have ‘grabbed’ Roger, it would have done so in 3 days.

Indeed, and that I seem to recall is an annual cost. Or £500 for life membership is £500...  Importantly, not everyone finds they like what Roon does, or considers it sufficient value for money to buy. However an additional trial makes sense if they’ll give it, just to be sure.

Well of course if one doesn’t need it or want it then nothing matters. I do say continue to trail it. But if waffling over the price of $500 for something that you think will possibly really enhance the enjoyment of your $100,000 system is a bit ridiculous imo. For little more than the cost of a powerline one can have a lifetime Roon ROCK setup with a NUC and linear power supply and a really decent uptick in sound quality, esp from any laptop or consumer p.c. I noticed it immediately on both my V1 and UQ. Plus Roon will serve to any Roon ready device in the house. We have a Sonos in the kitchen and bathroom, a mu-so in the bedroom, and the microRendu sends it to my V1 in the living room and UQ in the office. I control it with my 12.9 iPad Pro, my Mac Pro in the office, or my Google Pixel phone. My son can control it with his iPad, my wife her iPhone and so on. Easy to transfer the music from one zone to another. 

rjstaines posted:

charlesphoto posted:

Everyon’es extravagance is relative. Personally, I see your 500 system as an extreme extravagance, but others come over and see my humble DAC V1/110/Rega’s as an extravagance compared to their paint splattered Yamaha receivers and Polk speakers. And they don’t even see half my system (the microRendu, LPS-1, NUC Cisco switch etc) as it’s round back the V1 and/or in a closet!

What drew me to Roon is how inspiring it is to “rediscover” your own library of music. And the Tidal integration is excellent (supposedly Quboz coming though I would imagine Quboz needs to figure out their US biz first). Ultimately, I think it’s a small price to pay compared to all of the other crap surrounding this hobby. I hear you on budget, but honestly, if you’re running a 500 level system, you’re not going to get much sympathy from around here over an extra $119/year! That’s approximately 8-10 cds, but with 8000 in your collection already, you probably don’t need those, but rather a really good software program to make them more useful.

I’m also thinking Roon is about due for a major update, probably more UI stuff this time, so it’s only going to get better. If you are able to have the server in a different room, I highly recommend a NUC 7i5 or 7i7 for ROON ROCK, and an inexpensive linear power supply for it and you’ll be golden. I got my NUC pre-built for $340 (7i5, 128gb SSD and 8gb RAM) though they generally run closer to $500 depending. Or you could just get a Naim Core for 8X the price - if you’re into extravagance.

 

A very reasoned and helpful comment, Charles, thanks.

You are welcome. I think you’ll find Roon great value for money, esp with a Roon ready device like your ND. Of course the lifetime option is fraught with risk, but they’ve pretty much all but said they would most likely release a stand alone version if they went under, possibly community or ex-employee maintained like LMS is. I don’t foresee that but who knows. HiFi has always been risky business. I suppose it behooves them to stick around for the yearly subscribers most! Each major version has been lauded as product of the year by many different hifi pubs, so I have a feeling there’s more to come. 

charlesphoto posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

 

Well of course if one doesn’t need it or want it then nothing matters. I do say continue to trail it. But if waffling over the price of $500 for something that you think will possibly really enhance the enjoyment of your $100,000 system is a bit ridiculous imo. For little more than the cost of a powerline one can have a lifetime Roon ROCK setup with a NUC and linear power supply and a really decent uptick in sound quality, esp from any laptop or consumer p.c. I noticed it immediately on both my V1 and UQ. Plus Roon will serve to any Roon ready device in the house. We have a Sonos in the kitchen and bathroom, a mu-so in the bedroom, and the microRendu sends it to my V1 in the living room and UQ in the office. I control it with my 12.9 iPad Pro, my Mac Pro in the office, or my Google Pixel phone. My son can control it with his iPad, my wife her iPhone and so on. Easy to transfer the music from one zone to another. 

Each person has a different idea of what is value for money, and to some at least that is a consideration whatever they are spending, and the amount they may have spent on anything else is of no relevance whatsoever - and any effect, positive or negative, on sound quality, that will depend on what Roon is replacing in the system, so in some setups the difference is essentially that of Roon’s different library handling and associated add-ons, and that may be where value for money is challenged more if sound quality isn’t improved.

Innocent Bystander posted:

charlesphoto posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

 

Well of course if one doesn’t need it or want it then nothing matters. I do say continue to trail it. But if waffling over the price of $500 for something that you think will possibly really enhance the enjoyment of your $100,000 system is a bit ridiculous imo. For little more than the cost of a powerline one can have a lifetime Roon ROCK setup with a NUC and linear power supply and a really decent uptick in sound quality, esp from any laptop or consumer p.c. I noticed it immediately on both my V1 and UQ. Plus Roon will serve to any Roon ready device in the house. We have a Sonos in the kitchen and bathroom, a mu-so in the bedroom, and the microRendu sends it to my V1 in the living room and UQ in the office. I control it with my 12.9 iPad Pro, my Mac Pro in the office, or my Google Pixel phone. My son can control it with his iPad, my wife her iPhone and so on. Easy to transfer the music from one zone to another. 

Each person has a different idea of what is value for money, and to some at least that is a consideration whatever they are spending, and the amount they may have spent on anything else is of no relevance whatsoever - and any effect, positive or negative, on sound quality, that will depend on what Roon is replacing in the system, so in some setups the difference is essentially that of Roon’s different library handling and associated add-ons, and that may be where value for money is challenged more if sound quality isn’t improved.

Not really. SQ is not everything. Having given up with upnp years ago I had switched to Squeezeboxes and Logitech Media Centre for my multitroom and library. I was happy for many years I could get all the streaming services and my own library. I tried Roon on a whim and the difference it made to using my library was enough to get me to switch .I noticed no difference in sq but the UX was far and away better. It gets you familiar with you library again and makes it all a pleasure to use. I found myself playing for hours with it. Also the  fact that your library and Tidal are treated as one seamless source cannot be underestimated, hopefully with more services coming. 

For me it's the best music software I have used and would be very sad if I could not use it anymore. It's not perfect but as close as I have found yet. It's the best upgrade to my system ever and no snake oil. 

Add in that it's a multitroom system not tied to one manufacturer and endpoints can be added for as little as £35.

SimonPeterArnold posted:

Not really. SQ is not everything. Having given up with upnp years ago I had switched to Squeezeboxes and Logitech Media Centre for my multitroom and library. I was happy for many years I could get all the streaming services and my own library. I tried Roon on a whim and the difference it made to using my library was enough to get me to switch .I noticed no difference in sq but the UX was far and away better. It gets you familiar with you library again and makes it all a pleasure to use. I found myself playing for hours with it. Also the  fact that your library and Tidal are treated as one seamless source cannot be underestimated, hopefully with more services coming. 

For me it's the best music software I have used and would be very sad if I could not use it anymore. It's not perfect but as close as I have found yet. It's the best upgrade to my system ever and no snake oil. To me it's been the best value upgrade ever 

Whether people like the look, feel and functions of Roon is very personal - some love it, some don't like it, and some like some aspects and not others. And whether it improves the handling of one’s own stored music may depend on how it is stored, the quality of metadata, and of course what software it is compared with. It’s Tidal integration is likely to be a strong positive for those into Tidal, but maybe the reverse for those who don’t use Tidal (unless that can be turned off).

Innocent Bystander posted:

SimonPeterArnold posted:

Not really. SQ is not everything. Having given up with upnp years ago I had switched to Squeezeboxes and Logitech Media Centre for my multitroom and library. I was happy for many years I could get all the streaming services and my own library. I tried Roon on a whim and the difference it made to using my library was enough to get me to switch .I noticed no difference in sq but the UX was far and away better. It gets you familiar with you library again and makes it all a pleasure to use. I found myself playing for hours with it. Also the  fact that your library and Tidal are treated as one seamless source cannot be underestimated, hopefully with more services coming. 

For me it's the best music software I have used and would be very sad if I could not use it anymore. It's not perfect but as close as I have found yet. It's the best upgrade to my system ever and no snake oil. To me it's been the best value upgrade ever 

Whether people like the look, feel and functions of Roon is very personal - some love it, some don't like it, and some like some aspects and not others. And whether it improves the handling of one’s own stored music may depend on how it is stored, the quality of metadata, and of course what software it is compared with. It’s Tidal integration is likely to be a strong positive for those into Tidal, but maybe the reverse for those who don’t use Tidal (unless that can be turned off).

I dare say that for 99% of us, Roon is replacing the Naim App.  It's not that theoretical an inquiry here on the "Naim forum."  Whilst there are some differences in how the different servers (Naim Core, Asset, Minim, etc.) present the data to the Naim App, it's the App that's aggregating it and presenting it in a UI to the user.  Likewise Roon aggregates the data and presents it in a UI. We basically have 2 decent choices - Naim App or Roon - to control our Naim streamers.  I've voted with a year's subscription to Roon.  YMMV, certainly.

Innocent Bystander posted:

SimonPeterArnold posted:

Not really. SQ is not everything. Having given up with upnp years ago I had switched to Squeezeboxes and Logitech Media Centre for my multitroom and library. I was happy for many years I could get all the streaming services and my own library. I tried Roon on a whim and the difference it made to using my library was enough to get me to switch .I noticed no difference in sq but the UX was far and away better. It gets you familiar with you library again and makes it all a pleasure to use. I found myself playing for hours with it. Also the  fact that your library and Tidal are treated as one seamless source cannot be underestimated, hopefully with more services coming. 

For me it's the best music software I have used and would be very sad if I could not use it anymore. It's not perfect but as close as I have found yet. It's the best upgrade to my system ever and no snake oil. To me it's been the best value upgrade ever 

Whether people like the look, feel and functions of Roon is very personal - some love it, some don't like it, and some like some aspects and not others. And whether it improves the handling of one’s own stored music may depend on how it is stored, the quality of metadata, and of course what software it is compared with. It’s Tidal integration is likely to be a strong positive for those into Tidal, but maybe the reverse for those who don’t use Tidal (unless that can be turned off).

Of course Tidal can be turned “off.” Just don’t subscribe or log in! And you can add as many or as few titles as you like to your library - they’re really just virtual copies in the database,  but the more ones add the more grunt you’ll need for your server. I currently have 49,000 tracks, about 40% of which are Tidal and my little NUC 7i5 chugs along nicely, even doing uprezzing to 384 for the V1 and can play several zones at once. 

Of course if you don’t like it you don’t like it. I didn’t when I first started streaming (I trialed an early version) but after trailing 1.4 it changed my approach to my library and system and I haven’t looked back or even sideways. 

alan33 posted:

David O'Higgins posted:

Bert Schurink posted:

I wouldn't want it (Roon) as I would need to have a computer running on the same networks. But for others they are not considering to live without Roon, so easy or ?

Bert, do you count a NAS as a computer?

As a pick up on this notion, I’ve moved my Roon Core (server) from my late 2012 Mac mini onto my (new) Synology NAS. I chose a 918+ model when updating the 213+ that is now 5+ years old and has just been dropped from the hardware list for future major OS updates. I went with a higher spec (and slightly higher priced) model to get the Intel processor (Celeron; quad core but not i3/i5 A’s is mostly recommended on the Roon forum)  intending to offload some server duties to the box - ie to treat it like a “computer” not “just a NAS” as David suggests.

The 918 NAS is still only running a few things as I take my time to learn more and switch more stuff on (personal cloud, VPN, maybe mail, plus the control and logging service for the Ubiquiti wifi access points are all on the list). It was a bit of a gamble since most on the Roon forum talk about much higher spec processing and memory and disc speed to run the Roon Core ... but for me (modest ripped library of about 300 CDs and mainly using Tidal; no digital processing for upscaling or room correction, etc.) I have not suffered from a slow or flaky experience. I added a SSD cache (which shows higher and higher hit rate while using Roon interactively) but I don’t think it made a big difference.

I have not added an SSD for the indexing file, but as I maintain a small library and mainly navigate on Tidal, it doesn’t feel slow enough to dedicate a slot just for that... if a rumoured future firmware update converts the cache-only functionality of the M.2 NVMe SSD slots, then I’m golden for the speed up over a spinning disc.

Anyway, bottom line: for a basic user, with a modest local library and only a few Tidal discs in my online favourites library, Roon Core running on a Synology 918+ is perfectly fine and can serve one or two endpoints. I’m sure the experience could be sped up and thus improved, but it hasn’t bothered me as is.

Worth considering if a new NAS is in your future and the idea of adding an extra purpose-built box, like a NUC running Roon Rock, doesn’t appeal. Hope this helps someone!

Regards alan

Thanks for the detailed post, I had planned to investigate the possibility of using Roon on my Synology 718+.  I only have around 400 cds, do you think it might work without the ssd cache?

kend posted:

alan33 posted:

 

Anyway, bottom line: for a basic user, with a modest local library and only a few Tidal discs in my online favourites library, Roon Core running on a Synology 918+ is perfectly fine and can serve one or two endpoints. I’m sure the experience could be sped up and thus improved, but it hasn’t bothered me as is.

Thanks for the detailed post, I had planned to investigate the possibility of using Roon on my Synology 718+.  I only have around 400 cds, do you think it might work without the ssd cache?

Thanks Ken - I think the main difference between the 718+ and the 918+ (apart from 2 vs 4 bays, which was my own main factor in choosing) is the amount of RAM pre-installed; the CPU is the same Celeron J3455, but the 718+ ships with 1x2GB (upgradeable to 1x2GB + 1x4GB = 6GB) while the 918+ ships with 2x2GB = 4GB (upgradeable to 2x4GB = 8GB, with success reported by people going with 8GB modules to max out at 16GB, although the Intel spec sheet indicates that only 8GB is addressable by that CPU). I think that this will be a thing to explore (use your resource monitor to ensure you are not memory constrained). I don't think that the (ssd) cache is making much difference, but I can't really be sure other than to say "it doesn't feel much slower that using the Naim app on UPnP" either with or without the cache in place. You would be more likely (if not using your 2 bays as a RAID array) to benefit from putting an SSD in one slot and ensuring that the Roon app and its database are loaded on there (instead of on your spinning HDD). Might be worth a try if you haven't already invested too much time in your initial setup and are still willing to start over with a clean install? Or maybe try an external SSD (on ESATA for preference, but USB3 is reputed to give good uptick in performance also) to give you a separate, fast volume for your Roon Core and its database. I hope this helps! If you've got the 718+ up and running already, it's a snap to install, move your existing Core location (disable whatever you have now, enable the 718+) and give it a whirl... I'd be very interested to hear your impressions and ideas.

Regards, alan

Kend,

Last week I moved my Roon Core from an i5 based fanless minicomputer to a Qnap251+ NAS, standard spec. I have been pleasantly surprised at how stable it has been. I have 2300+ albums, 40k tracks. I will be relieved at not having to ferret out a keyboard, mouse and screen occasionally in order to fix a system ‘freeze’. Also, I have had far fewer ‘unable to find Roon Core’ messages and they have resolved themselves in seconds, for the most part.

A definite improvement for me.

David O'Higgins posted:

Kend,

Last week I moved my Roon Core from an i5 based fanless minicomputer to a Qnap251+ NAS, standard spec. I have been pleasantly surprised at how stable it has been. I have 2300+ albums, 40k tracks. I will be relieved at not having to ferret out a keyboard, mouse and screen occasionally in order to fix a system ‘freeze’. Also, I have had far fewer ‘unable to find Roon Core’ messages and they have resolved themselves in seconds, for the most part.

A definite improvement for me.

Unless you try some dsp or upsampling it might struggle a lot. When I moved mine of the NAS, to a separate i3 it became much more responsive and stable than the TS453pro i was running it on.

Thanks for all of your replies? I already have the DS718+ running with 2 Wd red hdd’s installed, so will look at usb3 or esata with ssd for the Roon core.

kend posted:

Thanks for all of your replies? I already have the DS718+ running with 2 Wd red hdd’s installed, so will look at usb3 or esata with ssd for the Roon core.

You can certainly try it on your WD Red to get going; if too unhappy, only the database needs to move to faster disc for speed up. I’m all about trying stuff out, since I can do that without faffing about looking for stuff haha. Good luck! 

Regards alan

charlesphoto posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

SimonPeterArnold posted:

Not really. SQ is not everything. Having given up with upnp years ago I had switched to Squeezeboxes and Logitech Media Centre for my multitroom and library. I was happy for many years I could get all the streaming services and my own library. I tried Roon on a whim and the difference it made to using my library was enough to get me to switch .I noticed no difference in sq but the UX was far and away better. It gets you familiar with you library again and makes it all a pleasure to use. I found myself playing for hours with it. Also the  fact that your library and Tidal are treated as one seamless source cannot be underestimated, hopefully with more services coming. 

For me it's the best music software I have used and would be very sad if I could not use it anymore. It's not perfect but as close as I have found yet. It's the best upgrade to my system ever and no snake oil. To me it's been the best value upgrade ever 

Whether people like the look, feel and functions of Roon is very personal - some love it, some don't like it, and some like some aspects and not others. And whether it improves the handling of one’s own stored music may depend on how it is stored, the quality of metadata, and of course what software it is compared with. It’s Tidal integration is likely to be a strong positive for those into Tidal, but maybe the reverse for those who don’t use Tidal (unless that can be turned off).

Of course Tidal can be turned “off.” Just don’t subscribe or log in! And you can add as many or as few titles as you like to your library - they’re really just virtual copies in the database,  but the more ones add the more grunt you’ll need for your server. I currently have 49,000 tracks, about 40% of which are Tidal and my little NUC 7i5 chugs along nicely, even doing uprezzing to 384 for the V1 and can play several zones at once. 

Of course if you don’t like it you don’t like it. I didn’t when I first started streaming (I trialed an early version) but after trailing 1.4 it changed my approach to my library and system and I haven’t looked back or even sideways. 

One more post like this and your earlier missives will confirm you must be on commission! If not in sales, suggest you consider a career change ????

I wish! Unfortunately when it comes to hifi, it’s all been $ out and none back in.  

I have Roon and like it a lot...I had Audirvana but never use it now. I still use the Naim app for internet radio on my Muso and recently acquired Nova...sometimes the Nova requires a restart which I put down to it getting confused with the Naim/ Roon instructions. I hope that Roon will provide control of the radio functions in due course.

My Roon Core is currently based on a minimac which connects to a USB regen...I would like to get the mm away from my hifi one day.

I use Tidal and it dovetails superbly with Roon. I’m enjoying my music more than ever and constantly finding new albums to check out, often by hearing a track on bbc radio 6 or paradise.

Docv posted:

I have Roon and like it a lot...I had Audirvana but never use it now. I still use the Naim app for internet radio on my Muso and recently acquired Nova...sometimes the Nova requires a restart which I put down to it getting confused with the Naim/ Roon instructions. I hope that Roon will provide control of the radio functions in due course.

My Roon Core is currently based on a minimac which connects to a USB regen...I would like to get the mm away from my hifi one day.

I use Tidal and it dovetails superbly with Roon. I’m enjoying my music more than ever and constantly finding new albums to check out, often by hearing a track on bbc radio 6 or paradise.

Roon wont ever control Radio on the Naim itself it can only control what its server can send to the Naim. Roon has its own internet radio server already albeit limited atm  so you can use that instead of internet radio from the Naim App.