Bookshelf speakers - near wall challenge.

Jonners posted:

The Tablettes look great but how do you get round the bi-wire challenge with Naim amplification?

I've never bi-wired...and not sure it's ever been a challenge?

Just use the jumpers.

john kent posted:

Jonners posted:

The Tablettes look great but how do you get round the bi-wire challenge with Naim amplification?

I've never bi-wired...and not sure it's ever been a challenge?

Just use the jumpers.

No effect on performance then?

Jonners posted:

john kent posted:

Jonners posted:

The Tablettes look great but how do you get round the bi-wire challenge with Naim amplification?

I've never bi-wired...and not sure it's ever been a challenge?

Just use the jumpers.

No effect on performance then?

Sure there is

They should stop making those silly biwire connections

Perol posted:

Jonners posted:

john kent posted:

Jonners posted:

The Tablettes look great but how do you get round the bi-wire challenge with Naim amplification?

I've never bi-wired...and not sure it's ever been a challenge?

Just use the jumpers.

No effect on performance then?

Sure there is

They should stop making those silly biwire connections

Is there an alternative then?

Yes, use either an "F Connection", or flying leads, or just some short lengths of your speaker cable to act as links.  The metal links usually supplied are best not used in my experience.

Richard Dane posted:

Yes, use either an "F Connection", or flying leads, or just some short lengths of your speaker cable to act as links.  The metal links usually supplied are best not used in my experience.

Thanks Richard - I guess as I use banana plugs that this will narrow the choice down to "F connections"? 

Most speakers have 'binding posts' that allow the use of both spade connectors and 4mm plugs at the same time.

You can make (or buy or get made) jumper leads that have a spare at one end and a 4mm plug at the other; these almost always work considerably better than the gold plated pressed brass bars that come with the speakers.

Huge posted:

Most speakers have 'binding posts' that allow the use of both spade connectors and 4mm plugs at the same time.

You can make (or buy or get made) jumper leads that have a spare at one end and a 4mm plug at the other; these almost always work considerably better than the gold plated pressed brass bars that come with the speakers.

Thanks Huge, very helpful!

Then you can have hours of fun deciding which sound you prefer - plugs in botton sockets with links to top or vice versa (yes it can make a difference, some manufacturers acknowledge it too).

Back to the original question - i've got PMC twenty5.21s on custom shelves with the back of the speaker as close to the wall as the speaker plugs and curvature of the cable allows (about 4 inches) - they work a charm. I did audition speakers with this positioning as I knew the limitations and positioning within my room before auditioning.

The shelves are far more rigid and unmoving than speaker stands so aren't the poor compromise many think. (Brackets very firmly bolted to wall with heavy duty fixings with a solid piece of wood screwed to the top (with a cut out at the back to feed the speaker cable through) - I toyed with the idea of granite, but went with normal soft wood painted to match the walls in the end (brackets also painted to match). The shelves were big enough to take the twenty5.22 as I made the shelves before final auditions  - I preferred the 21s as, despite the 22s being "better hifi", I found the 21s more communicative and involving.

I also tried Totem Sky, KEF LS50, something by Russel K (sorry can't remember the model number), Rega RX1 and a few others I can't remember. I much preferred the PMCs (with the Totem being very different, but 3rd behind both PMCs) and puting them against the wall seemed to have no effect compared to pulling them forward into the room.The others did vary to some degree, but none so much I rejected them as a result.

I didn't get to hear any ProAc or ATC as none of the dealers nearby stock them so once I'd chosen a dealer I limited my choices to what they stock.

That was a year ago and I'm still enthusiastically going thorugh my collection and adding to it far more quickly than I had for years.

All of this was primarily with Atom, Nova and some non single unit kit (Naim and others)

Tallguy, would you be willing to share some photos off the PMC Twenty 5.22 on their dedicated custom shelves in situ? Would be really helpful and interesting to see how you put them together.

Sorry, I cant seem to do pictures, however they aren't anything special - I used 2 x 300mm metal shelf brackets per shelf from a large DIY store (I'm sure you know the one - the web address doesn't match the shop name, but does match my description if you get my meaning) for each speaker. I used the plain "L" shaped ones, none of the fancy shapes). I filled with that hardening foam stuff to prevent resonances, though sand or cat litter would probably do and not requiring sawing and sanding to size when set. I got an 800 x 400mm board (soft wood, not conti-board), cut it into two pieces, using the sawn edge as the back one. In the back edge I cut a rectangular 1.5 x 1.5 inch (note change of units) to take the cable (Big enough for most cables).

I used metal hollow wall anchors to hold to the fibre board walls I have which are dot and dabbed to breeze block, not studs. I used the proper setting tool to put the anchors into place and ensure they were really tight, and the wall surface not damaged (not from the DIY store the rest came from), Screws were tightended until I couldn't turn them any tighter. I used 52mm, not the shorter ones as I thouht they were stronger.

I spaced the brackets 25cm apart, leaving 5cm of wood either side (this was anticipating the twenty5.22 with a degree of toe in)

I used the longest, widest screw I could to fit the wood to the brackets. I pre-painted the wood and brackets to match the wall. I painted the screw heads when I'd put them in place. I also lined up the slots in the screwsto the horizontal , not for sonic reasons, but because it looks neater

I've used blobs of blu-tack to hold the speakers to the shelf.

And that's it. I could modify by sawing the front to match to speaker toe in but then I'd need to use iron on edging to hide the sawn edge. I also though about using sandwiched wood sheets or granite - may still try both of those in time.

Ideally you'd use stands away from the wall, but if you need close to wall placement I think my solution works better as there's no stand wobble (however small). It also works well to mount speakers directly above equipment, but not on it, so may suit what  the OP wanted to do.

Many thanks for the detailed write up, that is very much appreciated. I wondered if you’d had a bespoke set of tubular metal wall brackets made up by a local metal worker? As that was something I was considering doing, but an imminent room layout refresh means I should be able to use the original floor stands (if all goes to plan next week).

Still like the idea of wall mounting speakers though, and do wish more manufacturers would explore this approach.

Yetizone posted:

Many thanks for the detailed write up, that is very much appreciated. I wondered if you’d had a bespoke set of tubular metal wall brackets made up by a local metal worker? As that was something I was considering doing, but an imminent room layout refresh means I should be able to use the original floor stands (if all goes to plan next week).

Still like the idea of wall mounting speakers though, and do wish more manufacturers would explore this approach.

Unless mounting products like Bose ultra-compact speakers, wall-mounting audiophile-grade speakers will require careful thought to ensure enough space around them to perform and their weight doesn't mean they're in danger of falling off and hitting young children on the head! I imagine just this latter reason is enough to put most of them off for fear of litigation!

Jonners posted:

Yetizone posted:

Many thanks for the detailed write up, that is very much appreciated. I wondered if you’d had a bespoke set of tubular metal wall brackets made up by a local metal worker? As that was something I was considering doing, but an imminent room layout refresh means I should be able to use the original floor stands (if all goes to plan next week).

Still like the idea of wall mounting speakers though, and do wish more manufacturers would explore this approach.

Unless mounting products like Bose ultra-compact speakers, wall-mounting audiophile-grade speakers will require careful thought to ensure enough space around them to perform and their weight doesn't mean they're in danger of falling off and hitting young children on the head! I imagine just this latter reason is enough to put most of them off for fear of litigation!

There are some speakers, generally sealed box, or some front ported designs, that work well close to a wall and on a wall bracket. The best example I can think of is the N-Sat. If you use the wall brackets designed for it, you have to lift the speaker vertically upwards about an inch before they can be removed, so you wouldn’t accidentally push them over. 

ChrisSU posted:

Jonners posted:

Yetizone posted:

Many thanks for the detailed write up, that is very much appreciated. I wondered if you’d had a bespoke set of tubular metal wall brackets made up by a local metal worker? As that was something I was considering doing, but an imminent room layout refresh means I should be able to use the original floor stands (if all goes to plan next week).

Still like the idea of wall mounting speakers though, and do wish more manufacturers would explore this approach.

Unless mounting products like Bose ultra-compact speakers, wall-mounting audiophile-grade speakers will require careful thought to ensure enough space around them to perform and their weight doesn't mean they're in danger of falling off and hitting young children on the head! I imagine just this latter reason is enough to put most of them off for fear of litigation!

There are some speakers, generally sealed box, or some front ported designs, that work well close to a wall and on a wall bracket. The best example I can think of is the N-Sat. If you use the wall brackets designed for it, you have to lift the speaker vertically upwards about an inch before they can be removed, so you wouldn’t accidentally push them over. 

I am going to demo some ATC SCM11's next week as potential replacements for my Dynaudios which are sulking in their new home - an alcove. They're half the price of the Contours but smaller and the sealed box should give them an advantage.

I will report back folks!

I’d point out that the ATC SCM 11, 19 and 40s do need space around them.. not as much as some speakers but space none the less.. and bring forward from a back wall... performance is very much compromised if too close and imaging can really suffer... I suspect it’s more about reflections and refraction.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I’d point out that the ATC SCM 11, 19 and 40s do need space around them.. not as much as some speakers but space none the less.. and bring forward from a back wall... performance is very much compromised if too close and imaging can really suffer... I suspect it’s more about reflections and refraction.

Thanks for that. I'm stuffed however I look at it, it's an alcove or nought. I am trying some ProAc Tablette 10 Signatures too, maybe a pair of PMC Twenty5.21's too, though over my budget. 

I have cut up the port bungs for my Dynaudios to reduce bass boom, the trade-off is quite a harsh treble though. 

I have the original 805’s on a shelf. Front ported they sound great with my unitilite 

When funds become available I’ll be looking at the PMC twenty5.22’s to replace the 805’s.  The front “ported” TL and being easy to drive makes them a no brainer for my application. Expensive in Canada though.  

Fwiw...

I’ve got Proac Tablette 10 with naim nait 5i-2 in a small room that’s 12 x 10 feet.

I’ll say right now that it’s the best setup I’ve ever had.

The tablettes are about 10” (25 cm) from the rear wall and about 5’ (150 cm) apart and about 9’  (300 cm) from my ears...I know this isn’t ideal placement, but the proacs are just so simple to place. Best sound I’ve ever had and just as everyone says... the bass and size of the sound from these speakers is awesome.

john kent posted:

Fwiw...

I’ve got Proac Tablette 10 with naim nait 5i-2 in a small room that’s 12 x 10 feet.

I’ll say right now that it’s the best setup I’ve ever had.

The tablettes are about 10” (25 cm) from the rear wall and about 5’ (150 cm) apart and about 9’  (300 cm) from my ears...I know this isn’t ideal placement, but the proacs are just so simple to place. Best sound I’ve ever had and just as everyone says... the bass and size of the sound from these speakers is awesome.

would love to see a pic

Mulberry posted:

I have a demo pair of Guru QM 10 II at home right now and they work quite well on a bookcase and near to the wall. Somehow both their appearance and sound are not like I expected them to be, based on pictures and reviews. Yes, they look odd, but in a different way.  lower and deeper. The sound is thankfully not bass heavy, just full in a nice way. Not as agile as expected, sometimes even a bit dry. Overall I prefer them to the Dynaudio Special 40.

Will they be my new speakers? Not sure right now. A lot to like, especially given the price, but right now more appealing to the head instead of the heart.

If at all possible I would try the Guru's on heavy stands and also  I'm not sure about the Mk2 but the Mk1 didn't like going very loud and mine eventually blew and that was with a Nap 200 so not huge amounts of power.

I spoke to someone at Guru and he said that they didn't liked to be pushed very hard in rooms that have high ceilings.                              

Are the new speakers going in an alcove too, against a flat wall or on a shelf?

john kent posted:

Fwiw...

I’ve got Proac Tablette 10 with naim nait 5i-2 in a small room that’s 12 x 10 feet.

I’ll say right now that it’s the best setup I’ve ever had.

The tablettes are about 10” (25 cm) from the rear wall and about 5’ (150 cm) apart and about 9’  (300 cm) from my ears...I know this isn’t ideal placement, but the proacs are just so simple to place. Best sound I’ve ever had and just as everyone says... the bass and size of the sound from these speakers is awesome.

I've been using the Tablette 10 speakers since last November with an XS set up in a room about 20ft long and 10ft wide. They are about 5ft apart, on hifi racks stands, either side of a low wooden open unit with about a foot between the side of it and each speaker. Listening wise I am 6/7 feet away. So not that different to this.

I am reasonably happy with the sound although sometimes I feel it lacks depth although I have tinkered with positioning it has made no difference. There are no more compromises I can make to change either the position of the speakers or where seating is. If ever we move to a house that allows the use of a larger room I feel sure I would look at either PMC or Spendor floor standing speakers but I guess I am content for the time being.

Whatever I feel about these they are still better in my room than the PMC20/21 I sold, although I would like a bit of the depth they gave but their problem was eventually they were  bass heavy.

Charles, maybe audition the signatures as they give more bass than the std version, not massive but welcome.

Charles44 posted:

I've been using the Tablette 10 speakers since last November with an XS set up in a room about 20ft long and 10ft wide. They are about 5ft apart, on hifi racks stands, either side of a low wooden open unit with about a foot between the side of it and each speaker. Listening wise I am 6/7 feet away. So not that different to this.

I am reasonably happy with the sound although sometimes I feel it lacks depth although I have tinkered with positioning it has made no difference. There are no more compromises I can make to change either the position of the speakers or where seating is. If ever we move to a house that allows the use of a larger room I feel sure I would look at either PMC or Spendor floor standing speakers but I guess I am content for the time being.

Whatever I feel about these they are still better in my room than the PMC20/21 I sold, although I would like a bit of the depth they gave but their problem was eventually they were  bass heavy.

My experience with the Nait XS2 was that depth perspective in the sound-scape was not really one of it's many strengths.