Qobuz non native what am I missing

Anyone? I think  have asked this question before to a deafening silence

After this attempt I will remain silent.

The question cannot be answered without more information. What are you doing at the moment and with what. What does what am I missing mean?

There was quite a long thread earlier about Tidal vs Qobuz, using a good proxy at least a couple of members (HH, SiS) preferred Qobuz if my memory serves me well. The link is here:

https://forums.naimaudio.com/t...46#76892142925801346

Imho the sound quality of Qobuz and Tidal both at CD res is similar but not the same.  I'm not sure if I would choose one over the other for SQ reasons.  However the music available from Qobuz is different to a reasonable degree.  Again imho Qobuz is better for classical and jazz, Tidal for HipHop and other types of music than confuse me. Qobuz does also have hi-res streaming which can bring better SQ over CD res.  Given you can usually get a short free trial or the worst case is a month at £20, I'd strongly suggest a serious trial.

When Tidal integration came to the Naim streamers, it sounded OK to me compared to Spotify etc. but still a fair way behind local streamers from CD rips. Now, I think it sounds better than it did, but still not as good. I did the Qobuz trial last year, and it seened promising, but I was put off by a few widely reported issues with the app, gapless problems etc, snd then a couple of truly awful customer service experiences. I may revisit Qobuz at some stage to see if things have improved.

Well I do prefer Qobuz from SQ perspective on the whole and more non US and more European choice and alternative music... as well as hugely better classical and jazz. I also prefer the Qobuz themed playlists... more to my liking. I use BubbleSoft UPnP proxy server to play into NDX streaming transport... Bubble plays Tidal and Qobuz this way.. so it was quite easy to do side by side comparison.

What is interesting I found Tidal played via BubbleSoft UPnP Server compared to streamed directly to the Naim streamer significantly prefereable SQ wise... I examined the TCP behaviour on the line between the two methods and I could see key differences in terms TCP processing between the two methods which probably accounts for the SQ differences... a bit like WAV vs FLAC. So for SQ reasons I would absolutely recommend the superior BubbleSoft UPnP proxy method over direct streaming...

Thanks all,

I listen equally between music on my NAS and Qobuz. Generally, I prefer listening (through DNLA?) using BubbleUPNP rather than the Naim app - partly because my exerience of using the Naim app on Android was not good. But that is another discussion. I feel the sound is better through DNLA (I assume it is DNLA as it is not Chromecast) and I get pictures!

What I am wondering is  what is the advantage of the music service being native: could be phrased as 'If Qobuz was native to the Naim app (like Tidal) then what would the advantage be'. I can see that it could be more convenient and maybe offer more functionality but would you expect the sound served up to be better, at least theoreticaly.

Qobuz via Bubble is far, far better than Tidal directly to my 272. 

Thanks,

Sorry simon missed your reply before my previous post.

Interesting. It does not seem there is much advantage to be had SQ wise from using a native app - this surprises me. I am not using Bubble UPNP server but am using Minimserver - perhaps I should.

Leaving aside SQ I am not over keen on Tidal - I am not a classical follower but the accent on hip hop etc not my thing, nor do I like their closed door policy on some artists, e.g. Beyonce Lemonade.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Well I do prefer Qobuz from SQ perspective on the whole and more non US and more European choice and alternative music... as well as hugely better classical and jazz. I also prefer the Qobuz themed playlists... more to my liking. I use BubbleSoft UPnP proxy server to play into NDX streaming transport... Bubble plays Tidal and Qobuz this way.. so it was quite easy to do side by side comparison.

What is interesting I found Tidal played via BubbleSoft UPnP Server compared to streamed directly to the Naim streamer significantly prefereable SQ wise... I examined the TCP behaviour on the line between the two methods and I could see key differences in terms TCP processing between the two methods which probably accounts for the SQ differences... a bit like WAV vs FLAC. So for SQ reasons I would absolutely recommend the superior BubbleSoft UPnP proxy method over direct streaming...

Could you please elaborate a little bit on using BubbleSoft UPnP proxy server to play into NDX streaming transport?

To the best of my understanding BubbleUPnP Server allows one to create a proxy for an existing media server in the LAN. The proxy is meant to be used improve media servers that are known not to work reliably with other UPnP components. For instance, media server that are not easily discovered by control points. For which media server have you created a proxy?

The BubbleUPnP app (only Android) also allows one to access Tidal and Qobuz via its own interface under "Local and Cloud". Is this method preferable, equivalent or worse than using an existing media server, possibly one for which a proxy has been created through  BubbleUPnP Server?

So the BubbleSoft UPnP Server allows you to consume a web stream from Qobuz and Tidal... and proxy that service on your internal network so that as far your streamer is concerned it appears a local UPnP pushed media transfer. The buffering and effective layer 3 break allows the service and it media transfers to be proxied, and also transcoded to pcm  and as such on the legacy streamers at least improves SQ significantly... ie for the same master Qobuz sounds effectively the same as home rips... though this will depend on any differences between your proxy and home media server at the network stack level (inter frame spacing). ... 80% of my streaming is via Qobuz using this method now, my NAS is seldom used now other than for hidef... this has been transformational. I don’t create any proxies for local media servers as it is not necessary and I don’t send out over the internet.

Finally  I use my NDX in transport mode (in settings DAC is disabled and SPDIF is enabled with no sample rate no change ) and I use an external DAC, a Mk1 Hugo... yet to be beaten overall with precision SPDIF as far as I am concerned...

I’ve tried this with Tidal in my Pi and it sounds the same as Tidal “embedded” in the Naim streamer, based on a brief comparison.

I had a few issues with the app or the server becoming confused and refusing to play more than one track without stopping, but rebooting BubbleUPNP sorted it out. The main problem I have is BubbleUPNP disappears every few days, necessitating the entry of code to bring it back to life. Probably fixable but not fixed yet.

Keith

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

So the BubbleSoft UPnP Server allows you to consume a web stream from Qobuz and Tidal... and proxy that service on your internal network so that as far your streamer is concerned it appears a local UPnP pushed media transfer.  ...

Thanks, is there any pointer to this usage in the BubbleSoft UPnP Server documentation?

The only way I know of taking advantage of BubbleSoft UPnP Server for consuming Qobuz streams is to select "Create a proxy Media Server on this LAN" for an already existing media server. This works fine: if I select the proxy instead of the already existing media server in my control point, the streamer sees something like

http://192.168.178.2:58050/str...87b2e497cd0d1af.flac

instead of something like

http://192.168.178.31:49149/qo...amp;trackId=51374589

Here 192.168.178.31 is the streamer and 192.168.178.2 is the machine running BubbleSoft UPnP Server and hence the created proxy.

I can’t speak about sound quality like Simon, but I think the price benefits on downloading music from Qobuz are a nice side benefit. I am always using Tidal as I prefer the full integration in the Naim app.

No, I just set up BubbleSoft on a RPI, and it becomes its own UPnP media server pusher... very simple. Tidal and Qobuz is standard functionality .. just need to end your username and password. Dynamic and stored playlist are held on BubbleSoft server.  On the BubbleUPnP Server portal, under music renderers, you allow your streamer to be discovered as an OpenHome (UPnP Linn extensions) renderer... voila, jobs a good’en..

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

No, I just set up BubbleSoft on a RPI, and it becomes its own UPnP media server pusher... very simple. Tidal and Qobuz is standard functionality .. just need to end your username and password. Dynamic and stored playlist are held on BubbleSoft server.  On the BubbleUPnP Server portal, under music renderers, you allow your streamer to be discovered as an OpenHome (UPnP Linn extensions) renderer... voila, jobs a good’en..

I see what you mean now, thanks!

I had never thought of creating an OpenHome renderer for upmpdcli since this is already an OpenHome renderer and supports Tidal and Qobuz.

As a test, I have uninstalled the Qobuz interface of upmpdcli and selected "Create an OpenHome renderer" in the BubbleUPnP Server portal under "Media Renderers". This works fine but the control point (BubbleUPnP Android app) becomes sluggish. The MPD log shows that the files are now served by the RPi that runs BubbleUPnP Server, not by the one that runs upmpdcli, though.

I can obtain the same effect (MPD seing files served by the RPi that runs BubbleUPnP Server) by keeping the Qobuz interface of upmpdcli running and wrapping the media server it makes available with a proxy created by  BubbleUPnP Server under "Media Servers". This does not affect the responsiveness of the control point negatively, on the contrary.

Today Bryston have announced integration of Qobuz within their digital players, the BDP series. Come on Naim, go for Qobuz. I know there are a few ways of playing Qobuz to the Naim streamers but it would be good to have it within the Naim for easy access when required. Simon's suggested way is probably the best. I have also managed to send Qobuz from Audirvana+ via UPnP to the ND 555. But the ND 555 as UPnP is not always visible in the A+ device selection panel and I have not worked out why, as yet.

I am about to retire an IMAC that was running bubbleupnp for Qobuz streaming (amongst other things) At this point I think it seems best to set this up on a raspberry Pi as Simon-In-Suffolk does. I am IT proficient, but have zero experience with a Pi. Do I need to order anything more than the the "standard" Pi3 ? a different sound board or anything like that ?

All standard... and use an Ethernet lead to connect the Pi to your switch and of course you need a SD card for its storage to hold the OS and software.

Thanks - order placed.

Is there a Mac equivalent of PuTTY to programme the Pi? My of laptop has retired itself and BubbleUPNP has disappeared again.

With Mac there is a built Telnet command in the console... I  simply use that to connect to my Pi’s from my various OSX devices.

if for whatever reason your Mac has removed Telnet via an upgrade, then follow this to bring it back

https://medium.com/ayuth/bring...-sierra-11de98de1544

you can also run ssh, from the command console but not all Pi builds will support that as standard.

KRM posted:

Is there a Mac equivalent of PuTTY to programme the Pi? My of laptop has retired itself and BubbleUPNP has disappeared again.

 

In macOS you simply open the Terminal app and type "ssh pi@myrpi" where "myrpi" is the IP address of your RPi (the one you also have to enter in PuTTY) of the name under which this address is visible in your LAN. You will be asked to enter the passwrd of the user "pi" on your RPi. After succesful remote login, you do what you have to do on the RPi and then logout with "exit". Now you are back in the bash shell of the Terminal app.

I can only comment based on experience with a Mu-So Qb, which I bought in order to learn about networking and streaming. 

In native mode, the interface to the app (Tidal for example) is resident on the controlling device (iPad for example).  A track, album or playlist is called up on the iPad and streamed directly to the Mu-So via ethernet cable or wi-fi, depending on how you have the Mu-So connected to your network. 

In non-native mode (Qobuz for example) the music is called by and streamed to the controlling device and from there is sent to the Mu-So via a local interface like Bluetooth or Airplay. 

Even on the Mu-So, which is not a high resolution device, there is a substantial difference in sound quality.  The impact on the sound is akin to going from a flac file to an 128kbps MP3. Essentially the music becomes less detailed, less transparent and less extended. On a highly revolving system I imagine you would loose aspects like soundstage focus, depth and layering and most of the acoustic information would not be resolved, which would tend to add some degree of harshness to the treble. 

Please bear in mind that there are alternative implementations that may sound better than the comparisons I made via a Mu-So, but in my experience streaming directly to the Mu-So sounded considerably better. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

No, I just set up BubbleSoft on a RPI, and it becomes its own UPnP media server pusher... very simple. Tidal and Qobuz is standard functionality .. just need to end your username and password. Dynamic and stored playlist are held on BubbleSoft server.  On the BubbleUPnP Server portal, under music renderers, you allow your streamer to be discovered as an OpenHome (UPnP Linn extensions) renderer... voila, jobs a good’en..

 

Gave this a go and am sold. Tried BubbleUPnP server on my Qnap and a Fanless mini PC, with Qnap I couldn’t transpose to WAV do stuck with the PC.

 I was also trying Roon on the PC with my old Squeezebox Touch as Roon endpoint. Source from Naim ND5XS/nDAC

Test track Led Zeppelin Immigrant Song. I compared Tidal MQA on Roon and Tidal via the LUMIN app. Can’t quite put my finger on it but the MQA versions  don’t  sound right a bit too fatiguing less warmth compared to the WAV tidal version and imbedded Naim app, which were more involving.

I also tried Qobuz with the Sublime package, I see what you mean Simon. 16 bit edges ahead of Tidal and Hi Res is the best I’ve heard. No real difference with direct rips. Also the advantage of not having extra software/hardware to decode etc. 

Result cancelled Tidal and will not renew Roon. Also found Listening with Qobuz / WAV set up via LUMIN app an enjoyable experience.