Qobuz non native what am I missing

Glad it worked out for you... it’s good isn’t it... and only costs a few pounds to do...

Thanks for the input so far. Cannot quite decide what is the best way forward for me:

I have Synology NAS 218 Play, Android hardware, Naim Nova. Software wise I have Naim app, Minimserver on NAS, Synology Music app on NAS(obviously), Media Monkey, Bubble UPNP.

Any advice on best set up from here. Listening to Qobuz & my music and NAS equally.

I am not keen on adding to what I have. I am tending to use BubbleUPNP more than the Naim app (which I am not finding reliable at present).

Boris786 posted:

Thanks for the input so far. Cannot quite decide what is the best way forward for me:

I have Synology NAS 218 Play, Android hardware, Naim Nova. Software wise I have Naim app, Minimserver on NAS, Synology Music app on NAS(obviously), Media Monkey, Bubble UPNP.

Any advice on best set up from here. Listening to Qobuz & my music and NAS equally.

I am not keen on adding to what I have. I am tending to use BubbleUPNP more than the Naim app (which I am not finding reliable at present).

 

 

Oh and I have Kazoo let over from Linn days

Set up BubbleSoft on NAS, allowed my NOVA to be discovered as Open home renderer. Now playing from NAS & Qobuz very nicely - not sure what I have achieved SQ wise. Have I achieved the BubbleSoft UPnP proxy method here or do I need to enable proxy setting?

I am thinking the SQ is significantly improved from a short listen tonight but might be deluding myself.....

Boris786 posted:

Set up BubbleSoft on NAS, allowed my NOVA to be discovered as Open home renderer. Now playing from NAS & Qobuz very nicely - not sure what I have achieved SQ wise. Have I achieved the BubbleSoft UPnP proxy method here or do I need to enable proxy setting?

I am thinking the SQ is significantly improved from a short listen tonight but might be deluding myself.....

You won't get gapless which is annoying. I personally hear no difference in SQ to Roon and Tidal on my Atom. I also find some hires very fatiguing and prefer the MQA on Tidal instead as it can sound more analogue and less digital. YMMV.

Boris786 posted:

Set up BubbleSoft on NAS, allowed my NOVA to be discovered as Open home renderer. Now playing from NAS & Qobuz very nicely - not sure what I have achieved SQ wise. Have I achieved the BubbleSoft UPnP proxy method here or do I need to enable proxy setting?

I am thinking the SQ is significantly improved from a short listen tonight but might be deluding myself.....

Hi, yes if you are playing Qobuz this way - you are effectively playing it via a proxy.. enjoy.. From a SQ perspective it should now be similar to the type of 'sound' you get with home ripped CD streaming - master permitting - as it effectively has become the same thing when using a proxy this way.

If your NAS has the power you can also load/compile the binaries to allow FLAC transcoding - so Qobuz plays as WAV.. again makes a little additional benefit 

As pointed out there is an issue with the newer streamers that is preventing gapless play when media is pushed this way - Naim are aware of this and it might be down to differing interpretations of specs - anyway I suspect it will be 'fixed' by Naim in a future firmware upgrade so the gapless performance will be the  same as the legacy streamers which have no problems supporting gapless this way

SimonPeterArnold posted:

.. I also find some hires very fatiguing and prefer the MQA on Tidal instead as it can sound more analogue and less digital. 

What do you mean by this .. all the sounds are analogue reconstructed digital sounds with MQA containing additional artefacts which are judged not to be intrusive to the average listener...  Are you referring to tonal balance? Are you referring possibly to your DAC reconstruction artefacts, RFI or room resonances... clearly a digital sound would not sound like audio at all, but most likely a loud rasping unstable buzz.

You mention fatiguing which could be an overly forward analogue balance somewhere on full bandwidth audio...  interested to know more - it may be more fuller bandwidth sounds are exciting upper mid resonances in your room and speakers - and your brain is adjusting and over time this becomes tiring.. just a thought.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

SimonPeterArnold posted:

.. I also find some hires very fatiguing and prefer the MQA on Tidal instead as it can sound more analogue and less digital. 

What do you mean by this .. all the sounds are analogue reconstructed digital sounds with MQA containing additional artefacts which are judged not to be intrusive to the average listener...  Are you referring to tonal balance? Are you referring possibly to your DAC reconstruction artefacts, RFI or room resonances... clearly a digital sound would not sound like audio at all, but most likely a loud rasping unstable buzz.

You mention fatiguing which could be an overly forward analogue balance somewhere on full bandwidth audio...  interested to know more - it may be more fuller bandwidth sounds are exciting upper mid resonances in your room and speakers - and your brain is adjusting and over time this becomes tiring.. just a thought.

Overall  for me MQA can sound fuller, warmer and the highs less shrill than PCM. Not all tracks but a good selection I have tried I prefer the sound of MQA its more a kin to vinyl playback. The hires PCM sounds thinner and harsher especially in the highs and it makes for a fatiguing listen something more associated with digital music. I dont get this listening to the same album in MQA.  

Im not using a DAC via the Atom and I  am not even having the full unfold of MQA just the first done by Roon and its more pleasing. I also have some purchased hires PCM and again find them very hard to listen to and prefer the MQA equivalent. A Recent example  being Etta James' At Last in 192/24. But I also find the same in my 2nd system that is not Naim. 

Thanks - yes my observation is that PCM should never sound shrill, thin or sharp in a quality DAC and audio chain - it should be as close to transparent as can be, that is the whole point of it..  so it suggests to me something somewhere is not handling the fuller bandwidth energy ideally. MQA has some added filtering in its reconstruction filter to mitigate some of the artefacts - I wonder if that is what you are picking up on.. hard to say as MQA is not a great reference to compare things by because of its additional processing and artefact management that is simply not required with PCM. 

Remember vinyl has RIAA signal processing so the there is a very contoured EQ to compensate for limitations in the groove encoding and replay process.. often this processing errs on added bass / warmth to compensate for the naturally thin sound of vinyl - which is where much of the so called 'warmth' in vinyl comes from. Vinyl also tends to have attenuated HF for the same reasons. (RIAA processing)

Therefore, assuming the DAC is not too much of a compromise, my initial conclusion is that there is something in your audio chain or environment that is unduly excited by fuller bandwidth sounds - perhaps especially more HF energy in the sound... you could try and isolate or simply enjoy using filtered playback where such energy is reduced... some times you just go with whatever sounds right and enjoy the music... but I think its more about HF filtered sounds as opposed to 'analogue digital' sounds

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Boris786 posted:

Set up BubbleSoft on NAS, allowed my NOVA to be discovered as Open home renderer. Now playing from NAS & Qobuz very nicely - not sure what I have achieved SQ wise. Have I achieved the BubbleSoft UPnP proxy method here or do I need to enable proxy setting?

I am thinking the SQ is significantly improved from a short listen tonight but might be deluding myself.....

Hi, yes if you are playing Qobuz this way - you are effectively playing it via a proxy.. enjoy.. From a SQ perspective it should now be similar to the type of 'sound' you get with home ripped CD streaming - master permitting - as it effectively has become the same thing when using a proxy this way.

If your NAS has the power you can also load/compile the binaries to allow FLAC transcoding - so Qobuz plays as WAV.. again makes a little additional benefit 

As pointed out there is an issue with the newer streamers that is preventing gapless play when media is pushed this way - Naim are aware of this and it might be down to differing interpretations of specs - anyway I suspect it will be 'fixed' by Naim in a future firmware upgrade so the gapless performance will be the  same as the legacy streamers which have no problems supporting gapless this way

Thanks for all your help. Will have a look at transcoding too.

P

Hi again. Is the best way to transcode through minimserver? Maybe I should convert my flac files to Wave and be done with it. I have the space - I guess the loss is with information (tagging etc) but a small (possible) gain in SQ.

I cannot speak too highly of the Bubblesoft solution that Simon recommends. I am now using it through my back up NAS with the new Qobuz Studio Hi Res streaming. I have compared the SQ to Hi Res downloads I own and I cannot discern any difference. In comparison Chromecast sounds like MP3.

I don’t know if it’s possible but I wonder if Naim have considered adding this functionality to the Core which is effectively a NAS?

Boris786 posted:

Hi again. Is the best way to transcode through minimserver? Maybe I should convert my flac files to Wave and be done with it. I have the space - I guess the loss is with information (tagging etc) but a small (possible) gain in SQ.

Go to Minimwatch>Properties>System and then enter the appropriate parameter into the stream.transcode box e.g. flac:wav  or alac:wav et al. All the parameters available can be found on the Minim site.

Make sure the stream.converter box has ffmpeg in it.

Thanks all done. Saved me ploughing through Minimserver guidance - naturally lazy but think I am there now.

Now for radio streaming.....

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

No, I just set up BubbleSoft on a RPI, and it becomes its own UPnP media server pusher... very simple. Tidal and Qobuz is standard functionality .. just need to end your username and password. Dynamic and stored playlist are held on BubbleSoft server.  On the BubbleUPnP Server portal, under music renderers, you allow your streamer to be discovered as an OpenHome (UPnP Linn extensions) renderer... voila, jobs a good’en..

 

Simon, can you clarify a couple of things:

1 - if using the RPI headless which VNC clients/server do you use?  Just installed Raspbian afresh and enabled the supplied VNC server under Preferences>Raspberry Pi Configuration - for a Mac using the standard Screen Sharing app I need to use this with VNC authentication rather than Unix password

2 - For BubbleUPnP, do you install the Debian package or use the 'Other Java platforms' option?- I think before I installed Debian version in a RPi VM and couldn't get it to work.

3 - Can you explain why ssh seems disabled despite enabling in Preferences>Raspberry Pi Configuration?

Thanks in advance.

Alley Cat posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

No, I just set up BubbleSoft on a RPI, and it becomes its own UPnP media server pusher... very simple. Tidal and Qobuz is standard functionality .. just need to end your username and password. Dynamic and stored playlist are held on BubbleSoft server.  On the BubbleUPnP Server portal, under music renderers, you allow your streamer to be discovered as an OpenHome (UPnP Linn extensions) renderer... voila, jobs a good’en..

 

Simon, can you clarify a couple of things:

1 - if using the RPI headless which VNC clients/server do you use?  Just installed Raspbian afresh and enabled the supplied VNC server under Preferences>Raspberry Pi Configuration - for a Mac using the standard Screen Sharing app I need to use this with VNC authentication rather than Unix password

2 - For BubbleUPnP, do you install the Debian package or use the 'Other Java platforms' option?- I think before I installed Debian version in a RPi VM and couldn't get it to work.

3 - Can you explain why ssh seems disabled despite enabling in Preferences>Raspberry Pi Configuration?

Thanks in advance.

To enable ssh, you need to create a file (an empty one is enough) named 'ssh' in the boot partition of the micro SD card, just google "Raspbian Stretch Headless Setup Procedure" for detailed instructions. Similarly, you have to create a 'wpa_supplicant.conf ' in the same partition (this time the file has to contain your ESSID and password) to setup the RPi wireless interface for remote access.

This is the standard way of setin up a RPi for remote wireless ssh access. You do not need VNC or any other remote access software. My Raspbian installation consists of 520 packages, included upmpdcli and upmpdcli-qobuz. On the RPi that runs MinimServer and upmpdcli, I have shut down a number of services, among others bluetooth and HDMI. Here are details of my  '/boot/config.txt' file:

# Disable audio (does not load snd_bcm2835)
dtparam=audio=off

# Disable bluetooth
dtoverlay=pi3-disable-bt

# CPU and memory settings
arm_freq=1000
force_turbo=1
gpu_mem=16

And these are the lines that you need to add to '/etc/rc.local' to disble HDMI:

# disable HDMI
sudo /opt/vc/bin/tvservice --off

Alley Cat posted:

Simon, can you clarify a couple of things:

1 - if using the RPI headless which VNC clients/server do you use?  Just installed Raspbian afresh and enabled the supplied VNC server under Preferences>Raspberry Pi Configuration - for a Mac using the standard Screen Sharing app I need to use this with VNC authentication rather than Unix password

2 - For BubbleUPnP, do you install the Debian package or use the 'Other Java platforms' option?- I think before I installed Debian version in a RPi VM and couldn't get it to work.

3 - Can you explain why ssh seems disabled despite enabling in Preferences>Raspberry Pi Configuration?

1. I simply use telnet and / or SSH interface into my Pi’s... so on OSX I simply ssh in from the command line console. On my iPad I use Mocha Telnet. I don’t use VNC desktop sharing or any other such complication as it is not necessary and is cumbersome.

2. I used the Debian package when I first set up after having complied, linked and installed LAME and ffmpeg. However I see there is a bundled set of libraries now called Optware-ng which appears a lot simpler .. I would try that now.

3. I have no idea if you have correctly enabled ssh ( which typical in a so called ‘headless’ install).. above post has some good advice....  but being Unix there could be 101 causes.. Google is your friend.  It’s also worth trying a different client..  you can try Telnet instead of ssh if you prefer as it’s only your home lan .. that is simpler.. again use your favourite search engine to find helpful web resources.

nbpf posted:

Alley Cat posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

No, I just set up BubbleSoft on a RPI, and it becomes its own UPnP media server pusher... very simple. Tidal and Qobuz is standard functionality .. just need to end your username and password. Dynamic and stored playlist are held on BubbleSoft server.  On the BubbleUPnP Server portal, under music renderers, you allow your streamer to be discovered as an OpenHome (UPnP Linn extensions) renderer... voila, jobs a good’en..

 

Simon, can you clarify a couple of things:

1 - if using the RPI headless which VNC clients/server do you use?  Just installed Raspbian afresh and enabled the supplied VNC server under Preferences>Raspberry Pi Configuration - for a Mac using the standard Screen Sharing app I need to use this with VNC authentication rather than Unix password

2 - For BubbleUPnP, do you install the Debian package or use the 'Other Java platforms' option?- I think before I installed Debian version in a RPi VM and couldn't get it to work.

3 - Can you explain why ssh seems disabled despite enabling in Preferences>Raspberry Pi Configuration?

Thanks in advance.

To enable ssh, you need to create a file (an empty one is enough) named 'ssh' in the boot partition of the micro SD card, just google "Raspbian Stretch Headless Setup Procedure" for detailed instructions. Similarly, you have to create a 'wpa_supplicant.conf ' in the same partition (this time the file has to contain your ESSID and password) to setup the RPi wireless interface for remote access.

This is the standard way of setin up a RPi for remote wireless ssh access. You do not need VNC or any other remote access software. My Raspbian installation consists of 520 packages, included upmpdcli and upmpdcli-qobuz. On the RPi that runs MinimServer and upmpdcli, I have shut down a number of services, among others bluetooth and HDMI. Here are details of my  '/boot/config.txt' file:

# Disable audio (does not load snd_bcm2835)
dtparam=audio=off

# Disable bluetooth
dtoverlay=pi3-disable-bt

# CPU and memory settings
arm_freq=1000
force_turbo=1
gpu_mem=16

And these are the lines that you need to add to '/etc/rc.local' to disble HDMI:

# disable HDMI
sudo /opt/vc/bin/tvservice --off

Thanks for the tips on disabling services.

I installed Raspbian Stretch via NOOBS which interestingly allowed easy wi-fi configuration (via NOOBS wi-fi tab prior to package installation).

I've got screen sharing working via VNC, but am failing to enable SSH.  I have SSH enabled in the Preferences.

Created an empty ssh file in /boot by opening terminal there and using:

sudo touch ssh

I can see this file was created in /boot using file manager over VNC.  It disappears after reboot which is expected?

Tried multiple times to connect via SSH and failed but just managed it after changing the password and hostname a few times, weird.

Maybe setting up from NOOBS is not the best idea, but it does simplify the wi-fi step - I'd quite like to explore the pi a bit more before dedicating one to headless mode running Stretch Lite.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Alley Cat posted:

Simon, can you clarify a couple of things:

1 - if using the RPI headless which VNC clients/server do you use?  Just installed Raspbian afresh and enabled the supplied VNC server under Preferences>Raspberry Pi Configuration - for a Mac using the standard Screen Sharing app I need to use this with VNC authentication rather than Unix password

2 - For BubbleUPnP, do you install the Debian package or use the 'Other Java platforms' option?- I think before I installed Debian version in a RPi VM and couldn't get it to work.

3 - Can you explain why ssh seems disabled despite enabling in Preferences>Raspberry Pi Configuration?

1. I simply use telnet and / or SSH interface into my Pi’s... so on OSX I simply ssh in from the command line console. On my iPad I use Mocha Telnet. I don’t use VNC desktop sharing or any other such complication as it is not necessary and is cumbersome.

2. I used the Debian package when I first set up after having complied, linked and installed LAME and ffmpeg. However I see there is a bundled set of libraries now called Optware-ng which appears a lot simpler .. I would try that now.

3. I have no idea if you have correctly enabled ssh ( which typical in a so called ‘headless’ install).. above post has some good advice....  but being Unix there could be 101 causes.. Google is your friend.  It’s also worth trying a different client..  you can try Telnet instead of ssh if you prefer as it’s only your home lan .. that is simpler.. again use your favourite search engine to find helpful web resources.

Lots of useful advice both here and on the web.

There are also many different options for proxies/controllers it would seem.

Are you using Lumin as the controller app for Qobuz or something else?

Gapless again does not seem possible via Bubble using Nova or NDX 2.

You will only get gapless on new Unitis with Naim app. They really need to change this.

Still not convinced Qobuz hires streams are better. I just played an album via the BubbleUpnp method  to my Atom. It's one I already own and actually bought  from them and it's 44.1/24 master so I am familiar with how it sounds.

The internet stream sounded vastly different and thin than what I know it to sound like and the highs are harsh and shrill. So I stopped and played my version again via BubbleUpnp for consistency from minimserver. It sounded as I remembered it. I switched back to the internet stream. Still the same it  sounds off it has the same issues I mentioned earlier in the thread about hires. I also decided to play the same file via Roon and this sounded like BubbleUpnp and minimerver.

I am not transcoding in any of these paths so what could account for such a difference? Both BubbleUpnp  and Minimserver are on my QNAP, Roons on a completely different server with local attached music. So this makes no sense to me as to why they would be different. I never get this with Tidal.

SimonPeterArnold posted:

Still not convinced Qobuz hires streams are better. I just played an album via the BubbleUpnp method  to my Atom. It's one I already own and actually bought  from them and it's 44.1/24 master so I am familiar with how it sounds.

The internet stream sounded vastly different and thin than what I know it to sound like and the highs are harsh and shrill. So I stopped and played my version again via BubbleUpnp for consistency from minimserver. It sounded as I remembered it. I switched back to the internet stream. Still the same it  sounds off it has the same issues I mentioned earlier in the thread about hires. I also decided to play the same file via Roon and this sounded like BubbleUpnp and minimerver.

I am not transcoding in any of these paths so what could account for such a difference? Both BubbleUpnp  and Minimserver are on my QNAP, Roons on a completely different server with local attached music. So this makes no sense to me as to why they would be different. I never get this with Tidal.

I am now pretty convinced SQ is better for me using Nova withBubbleUPNP . Could be Emperor's new clothes I guess but I did do a little bit of blind testing . I am also transcoding FLAC to WAV: at the moment cannot see any SQ effect but might be my ageing cloth ears and not really listened in earnest yet.

I felt SQ was better straight off with BUbbleUPNP method. So, from my point of view,  gain from transcoding looks more marginal.

SimonPeterArnold posted:

Still not convinced Qobuz hires streams are better. I just played an album via the BubbleUpnp method  to my Atom. It's one I already own and actually bought  from them and it's 44.1/24 master so I am familiar with how it sounds.

The internet stream sounded vastly different and thin than what I know it to sound like and the highs are harsh and shrill. So I stopped and played my version again via BubbleUpnp for consistency from minimserver. It sounded as I remembered it. I switched back to the internet stream. Still the same it  sounds off it has the same issues I mentioned earlier in the thread about hires. I also decided to play the same file via Roon and this sounded like BubbleUpnp and minimerver.

I am not transcoding in any of these paths so what could account for such a difference? Both BubbleUpnp  and Minimserver are on my QNAP, Roons on a completely different server with local attached music. So this makes no sense to me as to why they would be different. I never get this with Tidal.

I've also been doing some testing with BubbleUPnP server.  It worked fine on my main desktop PC so I installed it on my QNAP TS128A and sound quality dropped (very badly).  It could be becuase my 'little' QNAP was running low on memory as the swap space was being utilised which is never a good thing.  I uninstalled BubbleUPnP and the JRE, bounced the QNAP and all was back to normal.

Also BubbleUPnP as a client only (connecting direct to Qobuz) on my Lenovo Android without the server-side also sounded terrible. Don't do it!

I've now put BubbleUPnP on an old Windows laptop (until my Raspberry Pi arrives) and sound quality is the same as it was on my desktop. Tidal and Asset are now noticably better sound quality.  I've not done any back-to-back with Qobuz yet but I have listened to a few hires albums and it's all good. 

Hmm I have no other option than my QNAP at the moment, cant really run it on my laptop and all my pi's are Roon and MPD endpoints so don't wont to clutter those with Bubble but might see if it improves the Qobuz streaming.

If your QNAP is a higher spec one say (2- 4G) then it may be OK. I'd have been happy with it running on the one box but when I found the SQ dropped off and all of the TS128s 1G of memory was gone then it plainly wasn't going to work.  Asset can stay on my QNAP as it can run that with loads of resource to spare.