Half A Million Hi-Fi?

A good friend of mine likes to quote Einstein and says that everything is 'relative', even money!

Some time before Statement and 500 systems he asked me how much he'd pay for a good hi-fi. I pointed him in the direction of my local dealer and the following month he had a pair of active DBL's, 52, CDS2, 001 Tuner, top spec LP12, a new projector and 13 NAP135's driving his 6:1 stereo/cinema system. Two weeks later he bought a boat for £500k.

He's often thanked me for the steer towards Naim and say's it's one of the best toys he's ever had. He still has the same system with the exception of the CDS2, which has been changed for an NDS.

He said the boat cost him a bloody fortune!

I love that story Geko! I am a retired teacher so have much more humble finances. It was a big effort to buy my system, remortgage etc. I believe the fact it was a stretch to buy it makes me appreciate it all the more.

However, I am more than happy for those with deep pockets to enjoy the fruits of their labour any way they like. It is easy to criticise anyone for anything. Live and let live I say!

Stu

rjstaines posted:

Fact is, it's an asset... until you come to sell it,  as I discovered when I sold my NDS recently.  If I didn't understand depreciation before, I certainly do now 

:-) Agreed.

I guess I misspoke. Instead of unequivocally stating that it is not an asset, I should have said, "IMHO, it would not be wise to think of it as an asset". 

What would be daft is to think of it as in investment, which it isn’t. Unless it’s a Nait 2 perhaps...

hungryhalibut posted:

What would be daft is to think of it as in investment, which it isn’t. Unless it’s a Nait 2 perhaps...

Even then, better investments are possible. $1500 invested in US stock market in 1985 would be worth $5000 now.

Talking about a Nait 2, what else does one need?

stuart.ashen posted:

I love that story Geko! I am a retired teacher so have much more humble finances. It was a big effort to buy my system, remortgage etc. I believe the fact it was a stretch to buy it makes me appreciate it all the more.

However, I am more than happy for those with deep pockets to enjoy the fruits of their labour any way they like. It is easy to criticise anyone for anything. Live and let live I say!

Stu

What makes the story even better is that he left school at 16 with no qualification and now drives a Ferrari 458 speciale!

Richard Dane posted:

I think it's down to each individual to define what it means to be able to afford the cost of anything in life. Much will be down to hierarchy of needs and desires. I make no judgements either ways though I do perhaps reserve a bit of respect and admiration for those who chase the dream and make certain sacrifices to achieve it. Hopefully it's worth it, but that's something only the individual involved can answer honestly to themselves. 

Personally, I would dearly love a Statement, but it's a bit of an unattainable dream.  So while I may be able to buy one, I know I cannot afford it at this time. But that's OK - i can admire without having to possess. And I also have some of the trickle-down tech in my NAP250DR, such as the 009 transistors, so I can tell myself I have a bit of the Statement amp in my system already!

I have given this some thought - and did ask myself the same question several years ago but did not get a good answer.

Giving it some more thought, and now being influenced by the bogleheads forum, here is what I have come up with:

- Max out tax-advantaged retirement savings. (Atleast 15% of your income.).

- Max out Kids education funds (That would be about 15K-30K per child, per family) - to a point where you are reasonably certain that you would hit at-least 160K by the time the kid is ready to go to college.

That is the average cost of a 4 year education. 

- After that, a 15 year mortgage. If you can't afford a 15year mortgage, you should downsize your home to get into a 15 year  mortgage.

- After that - whatever money is left can be spent on Food, bills, clothes, HiFi, Cars, vacation etc - You choose what you want to spend it on. You can choose to drive a car for 20 years, and spend the money on HiFi if you want to.

If you can't do a), b), c) first, then you can't afford the HiFi. If you can afford to do a), b), c) first then you can in good conscience afford the ND555, a Porche, the Statement or whatever else strikes your fancy.

Still, my thinking continues to evolve - appreciate a cordial exchange of ideas - especially disagreements - that's where growth comes from.

MangoMonkey posted:

Sure, you can go ahead believing that. 

I don't think of cars as assets either. 

Depends on the car. But on the whole cars depreciate rapidly.

My system sounds really good, And I have been really enjoying my music.  

Earlier this year I heard the Statement amps at the Music Matters gathering in Seattle.  The system included non-Naim sources and cables, with gigantic Wilson speakers in a modest sized room.  The system cost was stated to be just under $1m US.  It appears the system setup was performed “by committee” - not just a Naim demo, but retailer and other vendors involved.  I made the mistake of sitting in front row (likely would have sounded better further back, I am guessing).

Hearing only a few musical tracks part way through, my sense of assessment struggled with so many unfamiliar elements.  Clearly the dynamics and percussive impact were impressive, as was the unravelling of individual sounds from the recordings.  In that short time, with the musical selections played, I could not quite get past the HiFi into the music.  

Returning home, I played one of the same music tracks on my own system.  Then is when I appreciated what was likely the contribution of the Statement, in the demonstration.  While the music at home was more engaging, and the “HiFi” less imposing, I was surprised at the “noise” of electronics and microvibration, which I had not noticed before hearing the cleaner Statement rendition of the same music.  

My sytem still sounds really good and I still really enjoy my music.  The music still grabs me, distracting me from “analytical listening.”  Will I ever consider spending the money for a Statement?  Not likely.  But perhaps in time I will trade for future (or current) products which will offer much of what Statement now delivers, for considerably less money.  In the meantime, I am content.

Charlie

MangoMonkey posted:

Richard Dane posted:

I think it's down to each individual to define what it means to be able to afford the cost of anything in life. Much will be down to hierarchy of needs and desires. I make no judgements either ways though I do perhaps reserve a bit of respect and admiration for those who chase the dream and make certain sacrifices to achieve it. Hopefully it's worth it, but that's something only the individual involved can answer honestly to themselves. 

Personally, I would dearly love a Statement, but it's a bit of an unattainable dream.  So while I may be able to buy one, I know I cannot afford it at this time. But that's OK - i can admire without having to possess. And I also have some of the trickle-down tech in my NAP250DR, such as the 009 transistors, so I can tell myself I have a bit of the Statement amp in my system already!

I have given this some thought - and did ask myself the same question several years ago but did not get a good answer.

Giving it some more thought, and now being influenced by the bogleheads forum, here is what I have come up with:

- Max out tax-advantaged retirement savings. (Atleast 15% of your income.).

- Max out Kids education funds (That would be about 15K-30K per child, per family) - to a point where you are reasonably certain that you would hit at-least 160K by the time the kid is ready to go to college.

That is the average cost of a 4 year education. 

- After that, a 15 year mortgage. If you can't afford a 15year mortgage, you should downsize your home to get into a 15 year  mortgage.

- After that - whatever money is left can be spent on Food, bills, clothes, HiFi, Cars, vacation etc - You choose what you want to spend it on. You can choose to drive a car for 20 years, and spend the money on HiFi if you want to.

If you can't do a), b), c) first, then you can't afford the HiFi. If you can afford to do a), b), c) first then you can in good conscience afford the ND555, a Porche, the Statement or whatever else strikes your fancy.

Still, my thinking continues to evolve - appreciate a cordial exchange of ideas - especially disagreements - that's where growth comes from.

The above is not applicable to everyone though. I'm quite sure that people are, on the whole, able to make their own choices.

I appreciate value when I find it; thus, I've been happy to purchase 'gently pre-owned' Naim black boxes over the years.  The ND555, alas, I bought new but am sure happy I did.  Everything else (252, Supercap, 250DR) was gently used and just under 2 yrs old, at an appropriate discount from new.

Richard Dane posted:

It was about getting you closer to hearing the live music event.

My experience of Statement is pretty much that, but not in a good way. More like listening to a band playing really LOUD in a small room in a pub. Fine if it's music you're into, but totally overbearing, impossible to ignore, impossible to relax to, and not something I could live with. Maybe the monster Focal speakers were responsible for this, but Naim don't demo with anything else, so I couldn't really say for sure.

ChrisSU posted:

Richard Dane posted:

It was about getting you closer to hearing the live music event.

My experience of Statement is pretty much that, but not in a good way. More like listening to a band playing really LOUD in a small room in a pub. Fine if it's music you're into, but totally overbearing, impossible to ignore, impossible to relax to, and not something I could live with. Maybe the monster Focal speakers were responsible for this, but Naim don't demo with anything else, so I couldn't really say for sure.

That's too bad -- sounds like you had a bad demo experience.  Fortunately, when the Statement event was going on in my town last year (or was it 2016?), my dealer doesn't sell Focal and so it was a huge pair of Magico speakers that got the duty.  Sounded FABULOUS.  

Bart posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Richard Dane posted:

It was about getting you closer to hearing the live music event.

My experience of Statement is pretty much that, but not in a good way. More like listening to a band playing really LOUD in a small room in a pub. Fine if it's music you're into, but totally overbearing, impossible to ignore, impossible to relax to, and not something I could live with. Maybe the monster Focal speakers were responsible for this, but Naim don't demo with anything else, so I couldn't really say for sure.

That's too bad -- sounds like you had a bad demo experience.  Fortunately, when the Statement event was going on in my town last year (or was it 2016?), my dealer doesn't sell Focal and so it was a huge pair of Magico speakers that got the duty.  Sounded FABULOUS.  

Yes, it's a shame, because the system had obvious talents. It's ability to unravel complex pieces of music in great detail, with a low noise floor, right across the frequency range, was really impressive. It was in quite a large demo room full of listeners who all looked as uncomfortable as I felt. The thought of having that system in a domestic setting would be unbearable. 

Quite a few people have commented on demos being too loud (Statement in this thread, but more generally sometimes in other threads. Can’t you simply ask them to turn it down? Even with other people preferring loud, if it really is turned up so as to be overblown there’d likely be some others who’d speak up echoing the request.

I recently visited our local NAIM dealer and despite the fact that they had the Statements hooked up to large Dynauadio speakers I did not have a shred of intellectual curiosity to listened to them, Hi Fi or no Hi Fi . When things get completely out of proportion for me, not making any sense, I just let them go and leave them to others to deal with. Instead, I seated myself in the smaller room and spent a delicious hour in front of a pair of PROAC 10s driven by a UNITY NOVA. Anything beyond that will clearly be wasted on me.

I am patiently waitin the arrival of my 555 and 500dr. Statements are unicorns, they don’t exist.  

I heard a NDS/555 > Statement > S800 system during a Naim roadshow about 5 years ago. The demo did a few things for me.

First, it convinced me that streamed ie digital music could sound good. I had been a diehard LP flat earther, but having had no decent hifi for over a decade, and no vinyl, the demo sorted out the query of whether to start anew with streaming or vinyl . Not saying that vinyl is no good, (it's brilliant), but that streamed/digital can work. The demo lead me to reassess my bias. Down the track I demoed some decent equipment and plonked my money down on a full Naim system.

Secondly, it reminded me that hifi show demos are not the place to actually assess properly an individual piece of equipment. The distractions of the environment just kill any meaningful evaluation. Sure it might sound great, you might get a sense of hierarchy, (if say they swap out one piece for a better one), but generally it's simply an opportunity to get a glimpse of something special and enjoy the free champagne.

As for idoes a Statement justify it's price, well If I had the funds I would buy a one. Wouldn't care what other people thought, or even if there was something better out there. I would demo it for sure, but only if I was actually in a position to buy.

Finally, I would only buy something that was properly supported in my city and had some sort of future value. And by value I mean resale desirability, not an absolute percentage of initial value. When deciding to buy my little Naim system I had also thought of going with an active Linn Akudorik set-up but couldn't get a decent demo . Additionally I  had my doubts about the dealer here in Perth so sort of lot interest in pursuing Linn. Future servicing also terrified me. Naim isn't assured of being here in the future, but it's track record to date is pretty good.

No hifi is a good monetary investment. Great music in your home is to me of immense value.

hungryhalibut posted:

That sounds like depreciation to me, even though it’s not the strict accounting sense. 

err - yes it is.

That's exactly what accounting depreciation is.

MangoMonkey posted:

Sure, you can go ahead believing that. 

I don't think of cars as assets either. 

I love it when these threads move in to disputes over the absolute meaning of abstract concepts.

In finance terms an asset is something one owns - it may be tangible or intangible.  To be recognised in financial statements it must be something capable of producing future economic benefits for the owner.

Not sure that helps anybody - but carry on with the debate

Depreciation is the charge to revenue rather than the actual reduction in value, which is only known when the asset is sold. If the sales value exceeds the charged depreciation then the excess is written back. If the value is less than the depreciation then a further charge must be made. An item only appears on the balance sheet if it exceeds the de minimis threshold. Isn’t accountancy fun!!

In layman’s terms:

An asset is something you have that can be sold to realise its value - even that is only a small proportion of its purchase value, so even if the Stetement system costing 0.5M is only worth 50k on the resale market, it is still an asset.

Depreciation is the difference between the purchase and resale cost -  in the above case the depreciation is 90%. When considered over a period of several years the depreciation is often divided by the number of years to express as annual depreciation - but that is starting to stray into the realms of accountancy.

As for ‘investment’, that is a bit more complicated. In general terms I think the lay person’s understanding is something that appreciates in value over time, whether interest paid on money in a savings account, or dividen and/or sale of shares in a company, or purchase of something the sale of which in the future will realise more than was paid for it (e.g. a classic car, work of art etc) However, the term ‘investing has another meaning, such as when used to refer to buying something that will give long term value of a non-monetary sense, as in (decades ago) investing in a set of encyclopaedias for the children, or investing in furniture of such quality that it will last a lifetime - and in that context, investing in hifi that will give years of pleasure.

bluedog posted:

MangoMonkey posted:

Sure, you can go ahead believing that. 

I don't think of cars as assets either. 

I love it when these threads move in to disputes over the absolute meaning of abstract concepts.

In finance terms an asset is something one owns - it may be tangible or intangible.  To be recognised in financial statements it must be something capable of producing future economic benefits for the owner.

Not sure that helps anybody - but carry on with the debate

So, in the event of a divorce, when SWMBO is looking to strip you of everything you own, how would you value a (for example) 500 series system?

My missus regularly threatens to 'take me to the cleaners' referring specifically to my Naim/ATC stack.  I keep telling her it's not worth anything at all, but unfortunately she knows how much it's insured for on our joint contents policy (that's its replacement value). 

The result of her promises to liquidate the hifi if I stray from the straight and narrow is that our marriage is one of the most secure I've ever had.  I have not looked at another woman in 'that'  way for more than ten years now. 

I live across two houses. One has SWMBO in residence and the other houses my true love...

Not actually the truth but it seems like a reasonable proposition. As for propositioning ladies, I have only once had one that took up the challenge of "come back to my place and have a listen to my stereo".

Not for want of trying either.