Buy/rip CDs or download MQA digital music files?

It is not so simple. MQA is effectively a container format (it means that it carries the actual file (usually lineair PCM) inside). What makes those MQA files from Tidal sound so great is that they are high resolution files. Normal CD recordings are 16 bit with a 44.1mhz frequency. Tidal's high resolution files are 24 bit and 96Mhz.

So, the take away here is not to go for MQA so much but to go for high resolution tracks. And those high resolution tracks are available in all kinds of formats. You may see them as FLAC, WAV, ALAC, or AIFF. ALAC and AIFF are very common in the Apple world. FLAC and WAV are much more universal because they find their origins in the opensource community and Windows respectively. Also, FLAC is the most modern of these 4 formats so it is arguably the most flexible (lossless compression, designed with streaming in mind, no metadata restrictions, etc).

www.hdtracks.co.uk is one starting point where you can buy high resolution files. Google will yield more. Qobuz has a webshop as well. If you do find high-res files sold as MQA, be sure your DAC can actually play them. The MQA files on Tidal get converted by Tidal before the signal goes to the DAC I think. MQA is a new format and not much equipment can deal with it.

JimDog posted:

I should be able to buy a decent QNAP/NAS to rip CDs to in the next year and do home streaming from.

I currently use the Tidal programme as installed on the 272 - but cannot see which tracks are MQA as I operate it from the Naim app on an iPad.

With regards to ripping your CDs, check out DBPowerAmp. Probably the standard for ripping your CDs error free. Also, start looking at music metadata structuring and edit programmes like MP3Tag.

PepsiCan posted:

It is not so simple. MQA is effectively a container format (it means that it carries the actual file (usually lineair PCM) inside). What makes those MQA files from Tidal sound so great is that they are high resolution files. Normal CD recordings are 16 bit with a 44.1mhz frequency. Tidal's high resolution files are 24 bit and 96Mhz.

So, the take away here is not to go for MQA so much but to go for high resolution tracks. And those high resolution tracks are available in all kinds of formats. You may see them as FLAC, WAV, ALAC, or AIFF. ALAC and AIFF are very common in the Apple world. FLAC and WAV are much more universal because they find their origins in the opensource community and Windows respectively. Also, FLAC is the most modern of these 4 formats so it is arguably the most flexible (lossless compression, designed with streaming in mind, no metadata restrictions, etc).

www.hdtracks.co.uk is one starting point where you can buy high resolution files. Google will yield more. Qobuz has a webshop as well. If you do find high-res files sold as MQA, be sure your DAC can actually play them. The MQA files on Tidal get converted by Tidal before the signal goes to the DAC I think. MQA is a new format and not much equipment can deal with it.

MQA files can be in any wrapper but tend to be distributed and streamed as flac.  Also you won't get full benefit of MQA on a Naim system unless

1. Your streamer supports MQA and can do the first decode. ( New models can via Roon but not on their own)  Or you stream from Tidal App on a pc.

2. You DAC supports MQA rendering. Currently no Naim kit does.

MQA has more benefits for streaming than ownership. It has two stages to get to the full hd resolution file. The files themselves are stored as 44.1./24 or 48/24 so are smaller than hires PCM. The first stage or unfold as it's known decodes to 88.2/24 or 96/24. The next stage requires an MQA enabled DAC to render to 176.4/24 or 192/24. You can just have the first unfold and it sounds very good so you don't neednee have the full unfold but it does sound better again . I do and think it sounds great on the whole but like all things is dependent on the recording. 

However if your purchasing music and dont have any way to get the hires from MQA then buy PCM as wav ir flac from sites selling hires media as mentioned HDtracks is good or you can use Qobuz or 7Digital.

Thanks of this info.

I'm mainly a laptop PC user, so FLAC sounds like the way to go for me. Is it ok to store these on my laptop PC now, then also on a QNAP when I get one? At the moment I have a Naim app on my PC but have not discovered how to make it play on my HiFi? Can I connect it to the HiFi by creating a home network? Both the PC and 272 are connected to the router with ethernet cables. Then use the laptop to control the 272 instead of the iPad? But I cannot fit a Naim app on the pc.

hdtracks do have some great music that is missing from Tidal. They strongly recommend FLAC as a format:

'Which format should I download? Not sure about what formats to pick? No problem! We offer "high definition"audio in FLAC format, which means you're going to hear everything you've been missing with MP3 and other "lossy audio formats." If getting the very best sound is important to you, you'll want to choose FLAC audio files for your purchase. How do I play these FLAC files? Playback is simple, and there are a host of free and low-cost applications available for Mac and Windows computers that play FLAC files. What do we mean by "lossy audio? Why is FLAC better?" FLAC files give you all of the sound in a manageable file size, but they are still biggest than MP3 files you may be used to using. The reason MP3 files have smaller file sizes is that the sound files have bits of data removed that the conversion to MP3 processing software assumes are not that important to the sound, and removing data makes for smaller file sizes."'

I would keep going with FLAC until you get the QNAP.  Don't go down the MQA route for the reasons in the previous post.   When you get the QNAP you might find transcoding will give a slightly better SQ.  Transcoding means the QNAP converts the FLAC data to WAV & sends it as a WAV stream to the 272.    Its what all lot of FLAC user peeps around these parts do

I haven't actually bought any hires files in any format. Would it better to buy in Wav, rather than buy in FLAC and then convert to Wav?

Does the 272 prefer to decode Wav signals?

Or is transcoding worth it because FLAC has higher resolution/more data than Wav, and so is better long-term bet as the format for a library of music?

Buy FLAC. It’s smaller and the metadata is easier. Keep it in FLAC. TRANSCODE to wav. This is not converting, as Mike makes clear above. Wav flies mean less work for the 272, and better sound. 

With a QNAP installed with Asset or Minimserver UPnP media server software,  it makes sense to buy FLAC as the compressed files save hard disc storage space - NB: compressed files does not mean compressed sound or anything remotely negative, its a storage space saving compression that gets unpacked when streamed.      The UPnP software provides the transcoding function & allows the NAS to stream a compressed FLAC file to be streamed uncompressed as a WAV stream to the 272.  

All streamers decode to down to raw PCM,  your 272 converts the WAV stream to PCM & because WAV & PCM are almost the same, very little processing power is needed.  With a FLAC file,  it also converts to PCM & that takes more processing power,  but before that it has to unpack (decompress) the FLAC files.   

FLAC & WAV have the same resolution & data capabilities.   

Beautifully explained, Mike. There is a place for that in the FAQ. 

Nigel, Mike - thank you.

So the QNAP does 2 things - it stores the files; and completes a preliminary step in transcoding them (from FLAC into WAV), which gives the 272 streamer hardware less operations to do?

I'm still not clear on 3 other things:

1. Why would CDs sound better when stored as files on a QNAP and streamed locally - when the CD reader in my CD5i is presumably a lot better than the CD reader in my cheap laptop that I may use to rip the CDs? (Or should I use a better device to rip the CDs?) Do they sound better ripped because of the above transcoding function of the QNAP? Or for some other reason?

2. Can I stream better hires files from the Tidal app on my laptop PC than from the Naim/Tidal app on my iPad?

3. Can I play stored iTunes music from my laptop PC or iPad thru the 272? (What I said above was incorrect - my 272 is wired with an ethernet cable, but my laptop PC and iPad are both connected by WiFi).

Any help gratefully received!

thanks

Jim

Hi again JimDog:    Re your questions   

(1) I'm not totally convinced a ripped CD does sound better than a CD player, my old CDX2 was amazing & in some respects & genre it did sound better but overall not as refined as my NDX.   However my theory is that the CD player laser mechanism & its required control is multi-functional & it has to mange the disc speed, read the disc & correct anomalies very accurately.  Whereas the rip is a lot simpler & can be done at any disc speed & all it needs to do is to read & copy the disc,   & finally the copy is verified by a number of methods as part of the ripping process.   The streamer receives that data stream & its on board clocking system plays it pretty well near perfect.    

(2 & 3) I know nothing worth the candle about Tidal or streaming from laptops & even less about streaming "from" an iPad.   I'm not convinced about streaming high res quality unless its from a NAS & its fully wired.  I know wifi can work,  but I'm not the person that knows enough about it.

JimDog posted:

Nigel, Mike - thank you.

So the QNAP does 2 things - it stores the files; and completes a preliminary step in transcoding them (from FLAC into WAV), which gives the 272 streamer hardware less operations to do?

I'm still not clear on 3 other things:

1. Why would CDs sound better when stored as files on a QNAP and streamed locally - when the CD reader in my CD5i is presumably a lot better than the CD reader in my cheap laptop that I may use to rip the CDs? (Or should I use a better device to rip the CDs?) Do they sound better ripped because of the above transcoding function of the QNAP? Or for some other reason?

2. Can I stream better hires files from the Tidal app on my laptop PC than from the Naim/Tidal app on my iPad?

3. Can I play stored iTunes music from my laptop PC or iPad thru the 272? (What I said above was incorrect - my 272 is wired with an ethernet cable, but my laptop PC and iPad are both connected by WiFi).

Any help gratefully received!

thanks

Jim

 

IF we take MQA files out of the equation because your current system won't be able to 'unfold' them to obtain (alleged) higher quality, then:

In my view, streaming Tidal via the Tidal app on your laptop PC has no advantages whatsoever over the use of the integrated Tidal service on the Naim app on your iPad. Apart from its MQA offerings (which attract some controversy), Tidal does not provide so called hi-res' streaming, offering simply a good (in my opinion) CD quality service.  

Jimdog:

1. If you're comparing files ripped from a cd and played on your 272, vs cd's played on your cd player, you're comparing a load of different hardware - not just the data files.  You cannot decide which data sound better when using such different hardware to convert the data to music to your ears. It sounds like you like the sound of your 272 better than the sound of your CD5i (not surprising!), irrespective of the ultimate data stream source. 

2. You're not streaming "from" your iPad, it's merely running the Naim App which directs the operation - it tells your nas (for music stored there) or Tidal (for music streamed from there) and your 272 to connect to each other over your network such that you can play music.  The data files are not stored on nor 'flowing through' the iPad.

3.  If you have music files on a laptop that you want to play over your network, you need to either (1) run a music server program on the laptop (iTunes won't do it) or run a music server elsewhere on your network that you can point to the laptop as a source of data.  Once you own a nas, it's probably easier to just move the files to it.  But are they lossless, or lossy? If lossy, you may find them not as satisfying to listen to any more once you've indulged in much better data (lossless flac and better (hi res)).

PepsiCan posted:

It is not so simple. MQA is effectively a container format (it means that it carries the actual file (usually lineair PCM) inside). What makes those MQA files from Tidal sound so great is that they are high resolution files. Normal CD recordings are 16 bit with a 44.1mhz frequency. Tidal's high resolution files are 24 bit and 96Mhz.

 

Whilst higher resolution might make for better sound, there are two other factors of significance: firstly, it is very possible that the mastering of the copy from which the MQA encoded version was made may be different from the mastering of the CD - if so that would be of great significance. Secondly, my understanding is that MQA is not bitperfect, and that even when fully reconstructed (requiring an MQA capable DAC as well as software, so not achievable using the DAC in the 272), it will have artefacts - but it is possible that the differences from the original file may be pleasant on the ear, which conceivably might account for any preference in cases where the mastering was identical.

Thanks all - this is really helping me to get my head around what my system is doing and could do!

Bart to your point 2. Yes, I understand that both the laptop and iPad are just acting as control devices for the 272 to get the data from the web or from a NAS. This is why it's ok that the laptop and iPad are connected by WiFi, because the musical data itself doesn't go thru them. I think the issue I was struggling with was that the Naim App which directs the 272 and tells it which Tidal files to pull in does not show which Tidal files are MASTERS (or 'MQA') - whereas I think the Tidal app itself on laptop and iPad does - although even on the Tidal app it's hard to actually search for their 'Master quality' files among all the other assorted (often quite poor) recordings they have.

Bart to your point 3. Yes, the files are lossy, and yes, I'll just wait until I get a NAS. It still interests me though whether there is a way to use the 272 handset or Naim app as a (proxy) 'music server program' to tell the 272 to pull files from my laptop? (Or in a Naim system is this normally handled by a 'Core'?)

The Naim app tells the server what to send, not what the 272 should pull. With a upnp server on your computer, such as Asset, it will work as if you had a nas. 

just for completeness (and not necessarily sound quality) reasons, you can stream files stored on your i-Device, from your i-Device to a NAIM streamer using the free 'm-connect lite' app. Just select the streamer as 'Play to" device and your own i_device from the "browser" tab (you can also select your NAS or Tidal as well but sound quality is reported  on this forum to be inferior this way, some of the people who have tried it have also contributed to this thread). If you like it sufficiently you may decide to upgrade to the add free version

PepsiCan posted:

It is not so simple. MQA is effectively a container format (it means that it carries the actual file (usually lineair PCM) inside). What makes those MQA files from Tidal sound so great is that they are high resolution files. Normal CD recordings are 16 bit with a 44.1mhz frequency. Tidal's high resolution files are 24 bit and 96Mhz.

So, the take away here is not to go for MQA so much but to go for high resolution tracks. And those high resolution tracks are available in all kinds of formats. You may see them as FLAC, WAV, ALAC, or AIFF. ALAC and AIFF are very common in the Apple world. FLAC and WAV are much more universal because they find their origins in the opensource community and Windows respectively. Also, FLAC is the most modern of these 4 formats so it is arguably the most flexible (lossless compression, designed with streaming in mind, no metadata restrictions, etc).

www.hdtracks.co.uk is one starting point where you can buy high resolution files. Google will yield more. Qobuz has a webshop as well. If you do find high-res files sold as MQA, be sure your DAC can actually play them. The MQA files on Tidal get converted by Tidal before the signal goes to the DAC I think. MQA is a new format and not much equipment can deal with it.

I've just had a look at hdtracks, and am very puzzled.  I started searching for music that I know and like - and it seems they have hardly any of them (The Pentangle - one album, Fairport Convention - one album, Taj Mahal - nothing, Bert Jansch - nothing, Yom - nothing, Hang Massive  - nothing, Tucker Zimmerman - nothing, Rosemary Standley - nothing etc.  Even the Beatles - one album (Sgt. Pepper's) and then a load of other stuff by non-beatles. )  So I must be doing something wrong - but I can't see what...  I'm putting a search string into the search box at the top of the main page.

Hi, your'e not doing anything wrong, just the illogical approach Tidal seems to take regarding " master " recordings, I mean out of the Fairport catalogue they choose Live in Finland, WTF ?

All you can do is search artist by artist, look through the listed albums to see what is mastered, Joni Mitchell is served well, others, the majority, are full of glaring omissions, I don't understand it.

JimDog posted:

I have a 272 and CD5i, so my streamed music sounds much better than my CDs or my records.

I should be able to buy a decent QNAP/NAS to rip CDs to in the next year and do home streaming from.

I currently use the Tidal programme as installed on the 272 - but cannot see which tracks are MQA as I operate it from the Naim app on an iPad.

After the free trial I may try out Qobuz as Tidal has quite a poor selection of tracks for most artists I like.

I want to build a library of top quality digital files.

The few MQA tracks I can identify on Tidal sound great on my system, so I'd like to start collecting MQA quality files.

How should I do that?

Can you buy files from Tidal? I thought it was a subscription-based streaming service.

I don't know whether or not Tidal sell files.

It would be a missed revenue opportunity for them to not sell permanent-keep copies as well as streaming packages.

winkyincanada posted:

JimDog posted:

I have a 272 and CD5i, so my streamed music sounds much better than my CDs or my records.

I should be able to buy a decent QNAP/NAS to rip CDs to in the next year and do home streaming from.

I currently use the Tidal programme as installed on the 272 - but cannot see which tracks are MQA as I operate it from the Naim app on an iPad.

After the free trial I may try out Qobuz as Tidal has quite a poor selection of tracks for most artists I like.

I want to build a library of top quality digital files.

The few MQA tracks I can identify on Tidal sound great on my system, so I'd like to start collecting MQA quality files.

How should I do that?

Can you buy files from Tidal? I thought it was a subscription-based streaming service.

+ The purpose of MQA is to reduce file size, so attractive for an online streaming service provider like Tidal because it means less bandwidth than otherwise for hi res music, and beneficial for those recipients with borderline internet connections able to stream satisfactorily at 16/44 but not higher. If downloading you might as well get the full hi res file in a non-lossy compressed format like flac, and have it as a bit-perfect copy of the original. 

JimDog posted:

Thanks all - this is really helping me to get my head around what my system is doing and could do!

Bart to your point 2. Yes, I understand that both the laptop and iPad are just acting as control devices for the 272 to get the data from the web or from a NAS. This is why it's ok that the laptop and iPad are connected by WiFi, because the musical data itself doesn't go thru them. I think the issue I was struggling with was that the Naim App which directs the 272 and tells it which Tidal files to pull in does not show which Tidal files are MASTERS (or 'MQA') - whereas I think the Tidal app itself on laptop and iPad does - although even on the Tidal app it's hard to actually search for their 'Master quality' files among all the other assorted (often quite poor) recordings they have.

Bart to your point 3. Yes, the files are lossy, and yes, I'll just wait until I get a NAS. It still interests me though whether there is a way to use the 272 handset or Naim app as a (proxy) 'music server program' to tell the 272 to pull files from my laptop? (Or in a Naim system is this normally handled by a 'Core'?)

I don't use Tidal, and thus I don't know how the interface with Tidal via the Naim App compares to the interface when you use the native Tidal app or website - sorry!

A Naim "Core" is essentially a hdd based UPnP server that also rips and stores cd's.  It definitely has its minuses and pluses compared to a bog-standard nas and ripping cd's on a computer.  The cost/benefit analysis between those two options has been discussed extensively here on the forum!

Beachcomber posted:

PepsiCan posted:

It is not so simple. MQA is effectively a container format (it means that it carries the actual file (usually lineair PCM) inside). What makes those MQA files from Tidal sound so great is that they are high resolution files. Normal CD recordings are 16 bit with a 44.1mhz frequency. Tidal's high resolution files are 24 bit and 96Mhz.

So, the take away here is not to go for MQA so much but to go for high resolution tracks. And those high resolution tracks are available in all kinds of formats. You may see them as FLAC, WAV, ALAC, or AIFF. ALAC and AIFF are very common in the Apple world. FLAC and WAV are much more universal because they find their origins in the opensource community and Windows respectively. Also, FLAC is the most modern of these 4 formats so it is arguably the most flexible (lossless compression, designed with streaming in mind, no metadata restrictions, etc).

www.hdtracks.co.uk is one starting point where you can buy high resolution files. Google will yield more. Qobuz has a webshop as well. If you do find high-res files sold as MQA, be sure your DAC can actually play them. The MQA files on Tidal get converted by Tidal before the signal goes to the DAC I think. MQA is a new format and not much equipment can deal with it.

I've just had a look at hdtracks, and am very puzzled.  I started searching for music that I know and like - and it seems they have hardly any of them (The Pentangle - one album, Fairport Convention - one album, Taj Mahal - nothing, Bert Jansch - nothing, Yom - nothing, Hang Massive  - nothing, Tucker Zimmerman - nothing, Rosemary Standley - nothing etc.  Even the Beatles - one album (Sgt. Pepper's) and then a load of other stuff by non-beatles. )  So I must be doing something wrong - but I can't see what...  I'm putting a search string into the search box at the top of the main page.

We're all utterly reliant on labels producing a hi-res version of albums in the first place. None of the core Pentangle/Fairport albums (for example) are available anywhere at anything higher than CD quality.

I once copied about 100 CDs onto my PC hard drive, using the build-in (cheap as chips) CD drive and free software.

That music is still there and can be seen in iTunes (I don't know offhand what format it's stored as, but it can be played in iTunes).

So if I now download a upnp server (e.g. Asset) onto my PC will I be able to stream those files to the 272?

If so, I might as well try that before buying a QNAP.

Nigel or anyone - have you used Asset, and is it worth getting the paid for or free version of it?

thanks

Jim