Naim App Query

It’s not the app, it’s your WINDOWS machine that is causing it. You’ve answered your question anyhow by checking the broadcasts already

We’ve tested the new app under the Beta programme and the discovery of servers and streamers is practically instantenous. Even in cases of server or streamer shutdowns, as soon as they were re-started and appeared on the network, the app picked them up in the same moment, without any propmpts.

Adam... thanks for your response.

So given the Naim app just waits for the SSDP adverisements (it’s clear from the trace it does pretty much nothing until it see’s the advertisements) the only solution would be to increase the frequency of advertisements. From my research i can’t find how to do this. 

Im curious that you say it should be almost instantaneous. That implies something else should be going on in the dialogue between the app and the windows server - or there should be increasedfrequency of SSDP advertisement with the attendant increase in network traffic.

To clarify, Im not pointing a finger of blame at the Naim app - merely trying to understand what Is’t going on in the trace, that should be. Hopefully that will give me some pointers on where my focus should be directed to resolve the issue.

i have looked at the Windows 10 SSDP service and the advertisement interval doesnt seem to be configurable. Neither is it, as far as I can tell, in the Asset UpNP server software. 

Also, to be clear, its the discovery of the Asset UpNP servers that is the issue not the discovery of the NDX2 itself.

You are barking up the wrong tree with SSDP,  it’s Windows going through it’s Network Discovery process.  Not sure what to do or even if it can bypassed as I don’t use my Windows laptop to store music.  Maybe you need to map the drive,  but unless a naimite that’s had this chirps in on this thread,  I suggest a www search on MS & Windows subjects is a better place to find a solution

I’m pretty sure that I remember hearing of people running Asset on a Windows machine with no problems. It’s probably a good idea to speak to Naim about it. I will try to bring this thread to the attention of the technical people. For what it’s worth, I run Asset on a QNAP Nas and, once the Nas has woken up, discovery of Asset is instant, even if the iPad or iPhone need to be woken up. I know this is avoiding rather than resolving the issue, but maybe you could just get the Nas now if you plan to get one anyway. 

Thanks again, all, for the responses.

Im not sure SSDP is barking up the wrong tree. As I understand it is fundamental to the UpNP discovery process. And if I break open the packets I can see references to the Asset UpNP servers. Furthermore, with Wireshark, you can see the packers in real time, on the screen, as they arrive or are sent. I am in no doubt that the SSDP advertisements from the PC are the trigger for the app discovering the servers. They cant be missed and and as soon as they are issued the app, on both Apple devices, discovers the servers simultaneously. It just seems to wait until that happens.

Im inclined to think there should be a query process initiated that avoids the need to wait ( a commonn feature in network protocols) but if it should be happening I’m not seeing it.

Just wondering if anybody else has done this and can give me some insight on what I should be seeing.

Ultimately I will, if neccessary, get a NAS. But

i) its another device that can fail

ii) It ought to work with windows

iii) I want to be sure i wont still have same issue if I do.

OK you stick with SSDP, but I think you might be finding something different.

If you can browse your music files, Asset UPnP can do the same.   How long does it take for you to open that file using File Explorer.   Have you mapped that file

As for having the same problem on a real NAS,  Asset UPnP's opening time is instant on my Synology,   & all other UPnP software I've used are the same.

Try asking for help on the Asset/dBpoweramp forum.

The music files are stored on a second hard drive within the PC itself - in this case the E: drive.

It also stores all my photographs. I have no trouble opening either via windows explorer.

Further, if i go into Asset configuration it tells me how many files it can see. If i request a refresh Asset executes and completes the scan without issue.

Also, once the Naim app has discovered the servers there is no delay when selecting an album to play.

Also, once again, Im not blaming the Naim app - merely trying to understand what is, and what should be, going on in order to resolve it.

OK but I would still go to Asset/dBpoweramp for a solution,  the owner 'Spoon' is very responsive & usually has an answer. Include a https link to this forum thread,  Spoon is signed up forum member. 

But I'm still betting the problem is in Windows & its own (Win) network scanning time.  

One longshot thing I would try in case some links have failed is to uninstall Asset,  power cycle the PC/laptop & reinstall.

Mike..

Yep... I suspect the issue is with windows, too.

I have done the whole powering stuff off and on, reinstalling Asset and Naim app thing, of course.

Tomorrow I have a day off work which I intend to use in an attempt to get to the bottom of it - there are a number of avenues of investigation I want to pursue (including going to Illustrate for advice).

Not yet ready to do a full Windows re-install but will even try that in the last resort.

At this point, the thread has been instructive in confirming my suspicion that things aint working as they should.

But, at least, I can actually play music and the NDX2 sounds sublime.

Thanks again.

Hi Alan,  good luck & here's hoping you find it.  Please post whatever you find, always useful to have for future reference.  

In ordinary configurations you should not have to wait up to a minute for the UPnP server to appear.  When the app launches it itself sends out an SSDP search and at that point the Asset server should identify to us.  We then keep watch for devices as they join and leave the network.  Then, when you go into the Server input all discovered UPnP servers should be ready populated.

I've just tested using Asset R6.1 on my busy work network and discovery is immediate, as others in this forum have also described in their setups, so without more information I think the root cause here is localised.  Though, I do have it running in a minimal Ubuntu server not a Windows user install.

I suspect  that something is blocking our initial outgoing search from getting to Asset so we're not aware of it immediately, then on entering the Server input it appears once it advertises itself as you suggest it will do periodically.  Something could be blocking our multicast messages getting to your Windows PC - either before at at the firewall - so that Asset server does not have a request to reply to, which might also explain why you aren't seeing them in Wireshark on the Windows NIC.

Usual troubleshooting steps apply first to see if other apps/devices can see the Asset server instantly, as well as disabling the Windows firewall entirely plus any anti-virus strategies that may be blocking incoming traffic.  However, beyond that if this is a general use Windows PC there could be numerous apps and services interacting with the network stack so it may be quite hard for us to replicate to find the root cause.

Greg.... Thanks for taking the time to provide your very instructive response. In particular, for confirming that the App does, indeed, send SSDP queries - which I fully expected but WAS not seeing.

I had, of course, switched off the firewall and even re-installed it - to no avail.

My configuration consists of a Cisco 2960 switch hanging off of the router. The Windows 10 server and the NDX2 both connect to this switch. Thus only the router and the switch sit between the iPhone/iPad and could be filtering out traffic in any way.

I could see no parameters on the router that might be responsible for my problem and the switch itself has a very basic configuration on it.

Nevertheless, I swapped out the Cisco switch for an old Netgear switch that I used to use (before I acquired the NDX2).  And, lo, I can now see the SSDP queries coming from the App - and discovery is, indeed, instantaneous.

The worrying thing is that I then re-plugged everything back into the Cisco switch and its now working there as well... Odd, because over the weekend I had powered everything (router, PC, switch) off and on again.

I shall monitor and further investigate the situation - but will now spend my day enjoying the NDX2 rather than troubleshooting network/protocol issues.

Thanks to evetrybody for their input to this thread.  For me, its’s been informative in improving my understanding of how this should work- always useful when troubleshooting issues.

Ahha !!!    "I swapped out the Cisco switch for an old Netgear switch" .......  that rings a bell. remember what I said about storing info for future reference.   IGMP network snooping is at play methinks,   I know diddly squat about it other than being aware;  the resident expert is [@mention:1566878603876589],  plus he knows all about the Cisco Catalyst switches & will know if there is a config change to overcome this,  I suspect it might involve your router as well.

Well, IGMP snooping is enabled (by default) for sure but there is nothing special about my config.

I’m familiar with what IGNP snooping does - I was Cisco certified at CCNP level, for routing and switching , for over 10yrs.

In my config I have all ports in VLAN 100 with portfast enabled on all but the router port. Nothing else is configured.

I have now rebuilt the config from scratch and we’ll see how it goes.

This might be worth a read  ............  https://forums.naimaudio.com/t...04#76328489079733504

Interesting.... I haven’t actually set up the switch as an IGMP querier. Can’t do any harm I suppose, though this stuff shouldn’t really need anything so sophisticated, I’d have thought.

I’d assume it should work just as well if I supplanted the switch with a simple Ethernet hub - which certainly wouldn’t have a querier function. Most routers aimed at domestic users probably don’t support, either - mine doesn’t appear to.

Anywho, all is working well at the moment. Again, thanks all for your input/help.

So I have been playing around, a little, with IGMP snooping on the switch.

It appears to me that without having the querier enabled the switch is just flooding the multicast packets (as a hub would).

If I activate the querier function then the switch starts mapping the groups to the interfaces where membership report messages are being seen (in response to the queries). This can be seen from 

 show ip igmp snooping groups

command.

In this case I assume the switch is constraining the traffic, for specific multicast groups, to the specific interfaces on which membership reports for the group have been received (the purpose of IGMP snooping).

Either way, it works just fine. Flooding is not generally a big issue in most small domestic network environments.

One Other thing I forgot... thanks Hungryhalibut if you did, indeed, bring this thread to the attention of the technical folk at Naim

Yes, I sent an email to Greg, asking him to take a look. It’s most odd that swapping the switches got it working, but the main thing is that it did, which is great. 

Yes indeed.... and also a little worrying. 

I hadn’t really considered the switch as the possible source of the issue until Greg confirmed my suspicion that I ought to be seeing a query from the App. Once I was content that I really wasn’t seeing such a query, and it wasn’t an issue on the Windows PC, then it could only be the router or switch. I couldn’t see any parameters on the router that might be behind it and I don’t have a spare to swap it with. I did have a spare switch though, and swappped it out. Then it started working. I then re-plugged all the cables into the Cisco switch and it was still working. I had, not, in the interim, powered off the Cisco switch.

I will monitor and see if there is any recurrence of the problem. At least I know where the potential issue lies now.