Time to move on from SBLs?

Michael, if you want new speakers that’s fair enough. I wouldn’t be too quick to blame the Sibbles though. A 52 or 252 would likely resolve your issue as they are ruthlessly revealing. They also need an impeccable source. I use a high spec LP12 and CDS3.

Because they are easy to drive many use them with less than ideal sources and amplification. They were designed to go on the end of very high quality systems and I believe they are simply doing their job.

That said, a more forgiving loudspeaker may ameliorate your issues. Others will likely disagree which is the nature of this place.

Stu

michael17 posted:

My passive SBL’s are 26 years old and still sounding good.  They have the Mk2 bass drivers but the rest is original. They still make music sound tangible and present but since getting a 282/250DR I’m more aware of their shortcomings (especially with a digital source).

 

If the tweeters and x-overs are original they maybe the cause of shortcomings : /

Need to be careful changing SBLs, there are modern speakers around that are better but they tend to cost a lot more than how much  good old SBLs are currently worth. Plus SBLs are boundary speakers that achieve sensible room placement especially in a smaller room, and 11ft x 19ft may not be spacious enough to easily fit in free standing speakers.

IMO a lot depends upon how good your  'boundary wall'  is for the SBL interface, and if you can arrange new free standing speaker with enough space to perform. If you're lucky to have a good brick or stone wall already there, i'd replace the tweets and x-overs and keep the faith with the Sibbles.

Debs

Thanks food for thought.  The walls are plasterboard which doesn’t help.  

I have auditioned nearly all the usual suspects around £4,000-5,000 and returning home to the SBLs they more than held their own, especially in terms of feeling just right.  So I did end up feeling I’d need to spend more to get significantly better.

Is it possible to get new crossovers?

Please don't say its time to move on to something newer and better (and considerably more expensive), I finally managed to source a pre-loved Snaxo 242 to go active with my SBLs and was looking forward to experiencing what they are truly capable of....

....I'm pretty happy with their performance passively currently though

michael17 posted:

Is it possible to get new crossovers?

don't think so but should be possible to get originals serviced up to spec.

The thing is;  replacing the tweets + x-overs could cost as much as your SBLs are worth, so doing so is a leap of faith. i did this in 2010 and it worked out very well. However, plasterboard walls are compromising so maybe you should take the opportunity to explore changing (?)

You could look to pre-owned Kudos S20, some around due to Club Kudos guys upgrading to Titans : )

Another wild-card is ATC active speakers - trading in your NAP250DR would help fund the costs....

The answer here is easy: SL2s.  They do everything that the SBLs do, but better.  In some areas, much better. I still haven't heard anything that makes me want to change my own SL2s. 

michael17 posted:

My passive SBL’s are 26 years old and still sounding good.  They have the Mk2 bass drivers but the rest is original. They still make music sound tangible and present but since getting a 282/250DR I’m more aware of their shortcomings (especially with a digital source).

There’s a slight nasality and constraint to voices along with some boxiness or mechanical tonality to the treble, noticeable especially on piano.

Secondly one needs to play the SBLs loud.  This is the biggest issue.  There is just a very small area between too quiet and too loud where the music fills the room and sounds balanced.   But then on some complex music, played loudly, the sound can sometimes get a little cacophonous and over powering and this may of course be related to the first issue.

I am not interested in going active due to cost and space constraints.  Spending over £1000 replacing the tweeters and crossovers seems a risky prospect, given I may just end up where I started and the bass drivers for the SBL are no longer available.

I listen now to a lot of jazz, from all eras, and acoustic instruments. My listening room is 11ft x 19ft x 7ft with some damping.  

While retaining what I have I’d like to improve:

• the degree of instrument separation to be better able to hear each musician, clearly distinguishable and playing in their own acoustic space.
• the tone and body of the sound, so things sound more organic, especially with piano, voices and brass instruments.
• performance at low levels and with less strain and confusion on complex music.

 

Would I be able to achieve these aims by renovating the SBLs?

Or should I just get some new speakers, Harbeth’s HL5s have impressed most on demo? 

I read somewhere that replay-volume changes the parameters of a speaker-element (temperature of the voice-coil) so passive cross-overs are optimised for a certain soundlevel. 

Dont remember where I read it and never verified so it can be BS.

My SBL had the same config but tweeters were replaced 10 years ago. They could sound shouty. But I dont think they sounded boxy or confused. Probably the room or amps (I used 135’s). Make sure the crossovers still have rubber-grommets intact against the cabinets. And that the screws on the elements are not loose. After 20 SBL-years I have finally settled (I’ve had a very promiscous speaker-year 2018 :-)) on the active ATC SCM19A. Detailed and dynamic sound and work well at low-levels (I live in a flat). But I wouldnt call it a SBL sounding speaker. It is also active with built-in ATC-amps. I liked the HL5 and I had 30.1 on home-trial (I found both great at low-level listening) but the ATC was for me. 

Michael-

My own system is also 282/250dr, mid-spec lp12,cd5 and harbeth m30.1. I bought the m30.1 "blindly" and have been very happy with them. I have never heard the shl5, but would recommend a listen to the 30.1 - I'm guessing the 30.1 has less bass, but a bit more "refined". The 282 (on very rare occasions) can be a bit exuberant, but always very listenable. Most of my listening is at relatively low volumes - 8 0'clock to 9 o'clock maxed out at 10!

Richard Dane posted:

The answer here is easy: SL2s.  They do everything that the SBLs do, but better.  In some areas, much better. I still haven't heard anything that makes me want to change my own SL2s. 

The only problem there is that the plasterboard wall is still an issue. That, and availability of course. The previous owner of my SL2s swapped for the S20, which is odd because I prefer the SL2 to the S20. 

One often reads comments along the lines of Naim amps being excellent but their speakers being nothing to write home about, or worse. But, to me, the SBL and SL2 are just wonderful. 

Maybe a complete change and try some ESLs, they don’t have to play loud to work and can go near the side walls to play down the long axis with a bit of space behind. That should cure your boxiness.

hungryhalibut posted:

Richard Dane posted:

The answer here is easy: SL2s.  They do everything that the SBLs do, but better.  In some areas, much better. I still haven't heard anything that makes me want to change my own SL2s. 

The only problem there is that the plasterboard wall is still an issue. That, and availability of course. The previous owner of my SL2s swapped for the S20, which is odd because I prefer the SL2 to the S20. 

One often reads comments along the lines of Naim amps being excellent but their speakers being nothing to write home about, or worse. But, to me, the SBL and SL2 are just wonderful. 

Ah yes, a plasterboard wall is a problem - for both SBLs and SL2s.

Have you heard any Shahinians? They break all kinds of "rules", yet work very nicely in free space, and work well on the end of Naim kit.  They're fairly pricey new, but a pair of Arcs would fall within budget, or else perhaps a secondhand pair of Obelisks.

p.s. I've just realised it's almost a year to the day that Dick Shahinian passed away.

I ran SBLs passive and active in an old system (long gone), but starting again i did look at SBLs but even Naim advised given no spares a dead end and a risk, so long story short i ended up with Focals and upgraded earlier in the year to 1008be2, they remind my of the SBLs in every way (plus more) but address the SBL bass shortfall.

I would have liked SL2s but at the time i struggled to find a good s/h pair.

I had Kan's, about the same vintage as your SBL's and replaced them 2 or 3 years ago only because I wanted more bass. If your still happy I would keep them. Or have a listen at your dealer and borrow a pair for comparison.