Naim & Subwoofers

Consider a REL sub.

Do not connect it to the HiCap or Pre-amp. These will be adversely affected. Take the connection from the speaker end of the speaker cables.

cheers, Martin

Consider a REL sub.

Do not connect it the the pre-amp or HiCap. Connect it to the speaker end of the speaker cables (make sure you use NAC-A5).

Martin

P.S. hope you don't get this twice.

Jeb:

I have a Rel Stadium II which I have on differenct occasions tried to hook up with differing speakers. I think there's even a thread in the new Forum about this.

My results are very mixed and very speaker dependent. The Epos's 22 that I tried to mate them with were simply too fast for the sub. The PR&T thing was fine for a lot of music, mostly vocals. When you had a lot of percussion though I always was turning the sub off to make things sound right. I tried a lot of different speakers settings and placements and eventually gave up.

With a slower set of Sonus Faber Concertos it was a better match. I got tired of the slow, colored sound of the Sonus Fabers though and swapped them.

I also tried the sub with set of Soliloquy 5.0's monitors. They actually worked ok for the most part. Mostly I think cause the sub wasn't fighting the monitors and the Soliloquys were a better speed match for the Staduim II.

I agree with the prior post that you should use the speaker outs on the Naim amp to provide the signal to the sub. It has an impedance of about 100 ohms so its practically invisible to the amp. It's also the only way you're going to get decent PR&T

I've tried about 5 different subs now and the Rels were the only ones that I could make work decently. I think though that even under the best of circumstances there will be a lot of times that you will find yourself turning it down or off depending on the music you're listening to.

I also tried the Soliloquy 5.0's with a Soliloquy sub (S-10), forward firing and allowing the monitors to run full range. With the sub between the speakers it works. Anywhere else and the sound was off. You still have to fiddle with it though to get the placement right. I ended up with the sub exactly in the middle and just slightly ahead of the monitors. This limits the seating positions available though. You also might not like the sub parked in the middle of your room.

In the end none of it was as good as a set of full floor standers and that what I ended up with.

I don't know much about Naim speakers, but I imagine they're going to be pretty fast. If so, you probably should stick with a smaller faster sub like a Rel Strada III.

Don't buy one that you can't return.

Arthur Bye 52/SCap/135's/CDS2/P9/NAT-01/Epos-22

Thanks for all the input.

What is the problem with plugging a Sub into a 4 Din connector on a Hi-Cap?

This was my intention - what are the problems?

Thanks!

The problem with hooking the line to the Hi-Cap is that it will affect the signal going to the Naim power-amp (because it's feeding both the power amp and your sub amp).

If you hook it up to the end of the speaker leads, then it's a very small "leak", which is also essentially outside the Naim circuitry. You could probably also connect it to the outputs on the power amp (where the speaker cable connects to the amp) with few detrimental effects. Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

Mike:

If the sub is self powered, do you think it would still drain the same amount of power, if any, from the HiCap? The speaker wire connection just seems so untidy and crude.

Also, where do you think the Sub should be located? Does it really matter? And which sub would you reccomend?

srf

I have a Linn 5150 sub which goes together with me linn5140 floorstanders. These speakers are part of Linns "AV" line though I use them only for audio. I think many people on the naim forum might think that because they are made for both audio and home theater that they can`t be good enough for Naim systems. I have cdx/01/lp12/102/super/250 and I find the 5140s excellent, even without the sub. For those that don`t know, the 5150 sub is a $4400 gorgeous sub that matches the aesthetics of the 5140 floorstanders. For me the subwoofer adds low frequency harmonics which translates into better ambience and depth to the music. I have a very large room and it also adds more of a foundation to the sound. I don`t hear any negatives at this point though I sometimes wonder if I would be happier if I had put the money to a xps, for example or a better preamp. Nevertheless, in the context of my system, this powered sub is a plus. Of note, I connect it by a din from my supercap as I was instructed by my dealer. It never occured to me to connect it to the 250. Why should this be necessary? The sub has a 200 watt amplifier. Wouldn`t connecting the sub to the 250 defeat the purpose of this amplifier that is specifically designed for the subwoofer. I`d appreciate any feedback. Oh, and one more thing, the linn sub is the nicest looking subwoofer I have ever seen! david

>> If the sub is self powered, do you think it would still drain the same amount of power, if any, from the HiCap? <<

Connecting the sub to the extra output on your Hi-Cap is the same as connecting two speakers in parallel with an amplifier. The impedance is approximately halved, which makes the pre-amp work twice as hard. It may not be able to supply sufficient current in peak signal situations, which may affect the sound in a negative fashion. It may also be detrimental to your pre-amp. That's why I suggest that you don't connect it to the Hi-Cap.

If, instead, you connect it to the speaker leads, then the sub presents a very high impedance load compared to the speakers. This makes the sub almost invisible to the 250. It also means that your signal will include the character of the 250. This should help the sub match the sonics of the rest of your system.

>> The speaker wire connection just seems so untidy and crude. <<

It's a bit annoying, but it's really the best solution.

>> Also, where do you think the Sub should be located? Does it really matter? <<

There is no hard fast rule, and don't believe those who say that you can put it anywhere; they're wrong! This varies depending on the settings for the sub, the shape of the room, the placement of the other speakers, the position of the listener, etc.

One technique is to place the sub in the listener's chair, then move around the floor, listening for the best bass. You'll find a few possible locations, and you can try each one to see which sounds best. If that technique fails, then you can just start moving it around until you're happy with the result.

>>And which sub would you reccomend? <<

I haven't had a lot of experience with them myself. However, REL is generally applauded here on the forum. Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

Ok, I have said it once, and i'll say it again: Subwoofers (any subwoofer) will make your SBLs go out of tune. I know I caused some controversy last time, but I stand firm on this subject as I have tried subwoofers with several Naim speakers. Any "extra" transducer in the room will have grave effect on the sound. In the end, a properly set-up SBL will produce great tunefull low bass. I recall Julian saying something simular to this effect. Remember, "they're capable of the hightest performance".

My advice is to check your set-up. SBLs are a touchy speaker and one little thing can ruin their performance and send them into a bright bass-less tizzy. They are, however, worth the extra effort because I believe they are one of the most amazing speakers.

Chris Bell
Naim speaker zelot now featuring NBLs for your pleasure.

Jeb,

I just tried to have a look at your system but don't see one listed.

I have SBL's and recently experimented with an REL Storm 3 sub which is £800 - see the thread 'Bomb the bass' in the last month for my experiences.

Basically Hi-capping my 102/180 has eliminated much of the harshness I was complaining about and given the SBL's a lot more poke on every record I play. The sub did great things for some music and that was the problem - too inconsistent!

If I was rich enough I'd still have bought the REL for fun - it gives dance music a real club feel and on some live recordings (Corrs Unplugged) added hugely to the ambience and scale of sound.

IF you're buying a sub REL are the best. The Storm 3 is the cheapest one which uses a 'Volt' driver and for that reason my dealer said that anything less with SBL's would not keep pace. Incidentally Volt make the woofer on the DBL I understand.

I do not subscribe to the 'all subwoofers are bad' argument - it depends on the music you play - for me the Hicap was cheaper and ironed out 90% of my problems - only when I'm pissed and being a volume hooligan do I miss the REL. (Some people might argue that's a good percentage of the time!)

Hope that helps,

Jonathan

Mike's post is correct, and I'll add that in connecting via the powersupply you have the additional opportunity to screw up the star-earthing. If you must run a sub, keep it simple. Jawed's was connected via a long-thin wire back along the speaker cable to one output terminal on one of his 135's (the Bass ones, natrually)... this is how Graham's recommended it.

Fix the problem (eg any system deficiencies) at the source. twice..

Rico - musichead

{edit} - PS: I had a think about this earlier today, but could not post due to forum being down.

Mike's point about double-termination is valid to a large theoretical degree, but if we consider a low output impedance, double-terminated into high-Z loads, the only significant factors are i)additional load driven; ii)division effects for load (current etc)... such that ideally yes, only one load should be driven (hey - two loads work ok in certain Naim-Naim applications, right?); but I suspect the greatest bogey at work here is the star-earthing screw-up. The bottom line is still, all theory aside, sort the front of your system out, then the mossle, and then the room-speaker interface. If all else fails, let us know and buy your sub!

ricomuzik@hotmail.com

[This message was edited by Rico on SUNDAY 03 September 2000 at 00:55.]

I'm going to agree with Mike H. and Rico on this one. I've tried it both ways. While hooking it up to the HiCap will work, the preferred way is to either solder it to the speaker out connector on the NACA5 where it exits the preamp or to just jam the wire and plug together in the banana receptacle. This last way sounds crude but it works fine and it has the added benefit of making for a tighter banana plug fit.

Going this route will limit you to REL subs only, as I am not aware of any other MFGs that have this type of input available for their subs.

It may seem "untidy" to you, but after you've done this you will think the opposite.

One other point. You want the Rel set much lower than you might think. I found the best results were when the Rel was set well below the low cutoff for the main speakers. This lets the main speakers do their full job without having to fight with the sub. Don't know what SBL low cut off is but I imagine its around 50 HZ. If thats right then the Rel should be set at about 40 HZ max. Rembember that the crossovers on each speaker will still make for overlap. This overlap is the region to watch out for as this is where you will hear any problems. You will find that this set up will actually make your main speakers open up in the upper bass, midrange and sound much better in general. Don't know why that happens, must be a Mana type thing or something.

Mike Hansons suggestion of speaker placement is correct. The only problem with it is that the end result is usually someplace where you don't want the speaker, like directly in front of you.

It's a good idea to get a test disc along with an SPL meter (Radio Shack or Tandy) when you do this. It takes a lot of time to get SPL levels +- 5 db though

Arthur By

Thank you all for all your input.

Q: Do I have to hook the sub up to both SBLs or just one? Is it okay to hook he sub up directly to just one of the SBL woofer speaker terminals?

Thaks!

SBLs are 20kHz - 30Hz +/- 3db. My mate gets considerable output at 20Hz due to a 30' room dimension!

Also, the RELs give considerable output above their supposed crossover frequency.

Depending on your room even the 22Hz lowest setting may be just barely low enough!

cheers, Martin

Jeb,

my experience is that bass timing is everything.

LFs in adequate quantity and correct timing resolve the tone of instruments that are predominantly upper range, like vocals and cymbals. Imaging, space, and depth are other aspects that good LF addresses. Not to mention the overall feel of loudness and power.

While ultra HFs and HFs are efficiently reproduced in any decent system, LFs by comparison are difficult to render properly.)

And then we have the SBLs. Well set-up SBLs have extremely fast LF response.

Putting on a sub-bass system may muck up everything there is, or give wildly inconsistent results.

For US$1000 I can only suggest a s/h Bag End Infrasub-18. Normal retail is about US$1500.

The whys :
Any speaker's roll-off depends a lot on the room. If you perceive the SBLs to start dropping off at 40hz at your preferred volume setting in your room, you will find that if you really crank them up, they can go below 20 cycles, though at a lesser output. So let's say at your preferred volume you introduce a sub to take care of 40hz and below. It follows that the sub's output will overlap the SBLs'. [b]If that happens, there is likely to be a cancellation and doubling effect at different points, depending on room-system interaction.[b/]

The how :
The Infrasub does it this way - full signal from NAC* into Infrasub's Line level inputs, where the signal is filtered and anything above 95Hz is Hipassed back out from Line outputs of the subwoofer to the Hicap.

Your main system will play full range down to 95Hz - followed by a swift 12db/octave cut-off of lower frequencies. The Infrasub will play from just below that down to 12Hz FLAT, and further down to 8Hz (3db either way). In my experience the high-pass electronics are very clean and there is no discernible muck-up. It has a built in 200W (400 peak) amp and it's front-firing 18" driver works nearly as fast as Bag End's 10" drivers.

The next thing is positioning. If you are using one sub, it pays to place the sub right smack in the centre of the sbls and to raise it up and towards you, until you get the speed just right.

That should do it. Anyway, the raves are all over the Internet. Go to : www.bagend.com

Vik :

[This message was edited by Vik on WEDNESDAY 06 September 2000 at 07:34.]

Chris asked:

quote:

---

if I had two NAP135's I would be using this extra socket on the hicap for the second 135, so would I be getting substandard performance?

---

No you wouldn't, because each 135 is wired to a different channel. Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

The pre-amp would to be driving both 250s in parallel, so would be required to provide double the regular current. Depending on the signal, the pre-amp may start operating outside of its acceptable envelope.

I would expect some degradation, although this would be balanced somewhat by the fact that you had two 250s instead of one. However, I believe that two 135s passive are better than two 250s bi-amped (for the same cost). The real benefit of having two 250s is when you go active, which also eliminates the load problems. Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.