Naim 'sound'?

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

My perception is that the drums are more noticable because Naim do a better job of them than some other makes. There is no "pushing up in the mix" going on - see the frequency response curves. However, the transistors in the Naim amps are the fastest ones going and what you are probably hearing is the leading edge being accurately portrayed..... possibly something you interpret as harshness.

Next time you go to a gig, notice how loud the drums are.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

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Before people start pelting me with SuperCaps, I can hear traces of this Naim ‘sound’ on systems from a new Nait 5 (compared to a Sugden A21a A Class amp), to a £6-7K monster demo system. Does anyone else hear this? Is it a Naim ‘sound’? Is it unavoidable to get dynamics, punch, presence & excitement at the expense of acoustic accuracy?

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This seems to be a recurring theme, I am absolutely convinced it has nothing at all to do with the Naim stuff, but is all to do with setup. I hate to say it, but some of the worst sounds from Naim I have heard have been at their own dealers.

Whenever I have heard a hard or harsh Naim system (and I have heard many) there has been other factors that seem wrong - dodgy source components, over live room acoustics, crap mains blocks, or the system simply being played too loud for either the amp or speakers to take etc…

With your comparison to the Sugden amp vs the Naim, my guess is the Sugden may be a little kinder to a less than perfect source, if you were to compare them with a CDS2 or good record deck you would probably find the Naim rose to the challenge more. The Sugden is a good little amp though.

I have owned a Naim amp for 13 years now, and I have never suffered even slightly with hardness or harshness. For over ten of those years I have partnered my Naim amps with Linn Kan IIs, not the most warm or forgiving speakers available by a long shot. I work on the assumption that if it sounds harsh I have done something wrong, so I find it and fix it!

Tony.

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A grand piano close up is absolutely deafening – yet never remotely harsh.

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I'll add another point here. I think you are correct about the harshness, but only with regards to Naim's lower-end gear. My wife tends to be very sensitive to this, and she was always asking me to turn it down because it was hurting her ears. I perceived this attribute of the presentation as "intensity" rather than of "harshness". (On another thread someone tried to suggest that a 3.5 was better than a CDX, and I believe this was the reason why.)

My system started with a 3.5/Flat/102/NAPSC/140. Now that I'm at CDX/82/2*Hi/250, she rarely asks me to turn it down.

Naim certainly holds Pace, Rhythm and Timing (PRaT) as sacrosanct. In their lower end gear, other aspects sometimes suffer (since compromises must be made somewhere). As you move up the ladder, the harshness/intensity fades, to be replaced by a wonderful tonal smoothness (without any loss of PRaT).

Of course the epitome of this is the CDS2/52/500 setup, which sounds amazing smooth, yet dynamically involving. Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

In my system (CD3/72/hicap/140), a Great Offender in the harshness sweepstakes was ground loops. I had the ground screw on my LP12 hooked up as well as a Naim CD player. Unhooking the LP12's ground lug from the back of the 72 cleaned things up a lot and fundamentally improved PRaT.

Supports also make a large difference.

- GregB

First off, I would say that it is nice to see a bit of healthy criticism on the Forum. The forum does at times get a bit too uncritical in its praise of Naim.

I had a similar problem as yourself, which was improved but not resolved as I went up to the top end of the Naim range. Things were only resolved for me when I put four sets of Nordost Pulsar Points under CD and amps (two layers under the CD transport). This has removed all trace of fierceness/harshness unless I am playing very loud. It was the best £150 I have ever spent! I think other posters have commented on the improvements that good supports can provide for Naim. If you listen at high volumes it is all the more likely that investment in good supports will help you with your problem.

Nic P

from what you say, can i assume that you actually auditioned quite a number of naim systems all the way to the top flight systems?? was this always at dealers?? reason i ask is that i have heard the best sound from naim systems in friends homes (mind you i have also heard some very bad ones too ... again badly set up, or not set up at all).

just to be specific, what i describe as harsh sound is that which you get when the speakers are NOT rigid enough, or the ARO arm pillar is TOO tight.

interesting comment though....

enjoy...

ken

However, IMHO, and all my friends agree, for vocals and other light music, tube gear still sounds best ... so now on the lookout for tube gear to use when I don't want to be rocked by the Naims ...

Whatever, Naim rocks, superb PRAT, and most of all is fun. In the words of my friends, this is not an "old man's" system ! "Old man" not to be taken literally (one of my friends is in his 50's and just loves heavy metal and rock) ... Otherwise, just go tube and forget Naim ...

Excellent news - I'm so glad others out there can agree on this.

The CDX it seems is very 'room critical'

I recently invested in a BASE audiophile resonance controlled cabinet and demoed a CDX/XPS for a few days with my 72/hi/180/Credos hoping that my earlier impressions of the CDX could have been wrong due to my old stand (an appollo singing ringing tree). Turned out not to be the case though - the CDX still sounded dull and did not get the feet tapping as I hoped it would.

I have had my CD5 since Wednesday this week and I spent most of yesterday dancing - yes dancing to what I was hearing - BTW I cannot remember EVER having done this before. Even my dog seemed to be enjoying the experience! - she usually retires to another part of the house.

Didn't someone once say " If it sounds good -then it is good "

Regards P.

Hi Frank

if you have anything more than one item plugged into your preamp then try unplugging the DIN leads for everything except the CD player and have another listen.

Report back your experiences.

cheers, Martin

Your system and experiences are very similar to mine with naim. Reading the reviews which have appeared recently in Hi-fi world and Hi-fi Choice one criticism crops up over and over and again and harshness is it. Nobody ever disputes the rhythmic qualities of the brand but naim does have a tendency to be a bit shrill compared to other brands. If you're drunk this makes the music more involving, if you're tired after a day at work I am reminded of Mike Hanson's wife's comment about 'raping her ears'

I have a John Wetton live rock album which opens with some acoustic guitar and then a storming bass guitar cuts in. On my friend's Yamaha Cd/amp and Bose speakers that bass guitar has superb power (and his system costs around £1500) It dammned near pins you against the wall. On my £8-9 000 naim system the bass guitar is superbly defined but has nothing like the scale of the cheaper system.

Hi-capping the 102 has improved matters to a great degree and experiments with a subwoofer produced mixed results (but improved the John Wetton track - a lot!) You should definately hicap your 82 before doing anything else.

I've given some thought to building a "my DBL" solution for fun or hunting down some Isobariks because I'm becoming more and more convinced that big speakers hold the key to big sound. My problem has been that the tweeter seems louder than the woofer and it's this imbalance between the amount of high and low frequency information which causes complaints of shrillness.

After Hicap I am 80% happy with my system on 70% of the music I play which is a huge improvement. Previously I was getting to the stage of buying a lot of well recorded stuff because anything that wasn't took your fillings out.

Jonathan

From the debates going on I noticed that you are also an Exposure user. Perfect! I think they are very great amps as well, (my first true audiophile amp) and was wondering if you could advice me on exposure upgrades. I have in my other home an 8-year-old Exposure integrated XX (no the super XX, but already with new fascia). Have you listened to the new crop of exposure integrateds, like the RCXXV? How do they stand against the pre-power combos? They would be driving B&Ws.

Interestingly though... I think my XX is the entry-level model, and already it has a fully regulated power supply, and a transformer which puts my NAP140 to shame. :P

cheers!
Steven

My experience is that a well set up Naim system running on a decent electricity supply is not bright, not edgy, not harsh and most definitely gets you involved with the music. I have heard nasty, bright, edgy Naim systems, so I can understand where some people are coming from, but the truth is this isn't the real Naim sound. Extracting the best from a Naim system is not always easy, and maybe some people here would be better off selling their Naim gear and buying something else if they are not getting a sound that they are 100% happy with. Would I be running a Naim sytem if I had shelled out thousands of £'s but was still disappointed. No chance! After all there is not much you can do about environmental effects like bad mains, RFI, etc.

As for Exposure, I have heard some decent sounds coming from Exposure systems, notably the Exposure/Mana/Neat system at the last Bristol show and it is a brand along with a handful of others that produces equipment that is music not "hifi effects" orientated. But you have to ask yourself a few questions. Does the company offer the kind of customer service Naim does? No. Does Exposure gear hold its value like Naim? No. Can they offer service of all their kit no matter how old? Probably no. Then there is the fact that Exposure seems to be teetering on the brink of bankrupcy all the time, whereas Naim is the most successful specialist hifi company in the UK. Considering all of these, and the fact that most of the Exposure amps are rumoured to be just Naim rip-offs, I don't see them as serious competition for my money.
John

Thanks for the link and tip... I didn't know exposure had a forum as well. Yes, the reason why I wanted to upgrade the XX is not because of the sound, but rather the output power. I also think they offer excellent value for money and are definitely not Naim rip-offs.

Speaking of rip-offs though.... I was very surprised when I opened up my flatcap. I have to say first that it did improve the sound by quite a bit, contrary to what some contributors have been saying, that only a hicap would do for a 102. The major component in the flatcap, which costs 360 pounds, is fresh air!! One transformer, one capacitor, one bridge rectifier, 2 regulators, and a couple of resistors!! The LM317 can be bought off a catalogue, and I was told that rejects from supercaps and hicaps land up in the flatcap!!

cheers,
Steven

In the "old" forum I once posted about the obvious emphasis on mid-range in the nait 3 and CD 3.5 and was rebuked by JV (I think) that that had not been designed in(or was not there at all?) - I then suggested it could not have been accidental. Whatever, I like that sound.

Anyway, the point is that you hear what you hear and you like it or not or prefer something else. Not really worth a debate is it?

And finally, let us not kid ourselves that hi-fi is anything to do with the reproduction of live music. At best it is about the reproduction of the reproduction of live music.

cheers

Nigel

Naim equipment has a distinctive sound different from any other manufacturer I have ever heard. I am a newcomer to Naim but listened to many setups before deciding. It is very safe to say that Naim systems are 'fast' and 'exciting' (can we at least agree on this). For rock, metal I wouldn't trade it for anything!!

My only issue with the amps is that there seems to be a 'peak' in the mid/upper base. This makes dance etc. sound good but with classical/vocal it sounds too exciting. This seems to agree with some of the comments made earlier although I don't notice this with all dynaimic peaks.

I have tried many different tweaks (stands, mains, room layout etc.) but none of this has ever specifically targeted the emphasised upper base. I realise that Naim could probably produce many graphs showing flat responses but I have heard it in every Naim system, both in shops and at home (when compared to other systems).

As for harshnesh.....I've never heard a harsh system that was caused by the components themselves.

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The "pushing up" of the percussion your hearing probably has allot to do with Naim's trade mark "flat earth" sound. That is the bass signal is delivered before the treble signal, which happens to be contrary to 90% of the systems available on the market today. The tendency is to sacrifice a little soundstaging and imagery for rhythm and beat.

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Thanks Todd, I haven't had such a good laugh for, oh, half an hour or so! Without dissecting your assertion too much, wouldn't this in fact f*#% up the music by actually destroying the ryhmn (timing)? You are talking about non-linear delay in the time domain of frequency.

The flipside to your round-earth argument is that 90% of the kit sacrifices rythmn and beat for artifices such as imaging and soundstaging... which are usually caused by phase delays... but that's another argument

Whatever; Naim kit times like a bstard.

Rico - musichead

ricomuzik@hotmail.com

PS - nice post, Omer. And Tony 'vinyl-nutter' is right on the mark - it's all revealing... if it's harsh, set it up right. That you don't have to do this with other kit is redundant - you're just not 'tempted'.

[This message was edited by Rico on WEDNESDAY 13 September 2000 at 13:51.]

I am surprisd at Vuk's assertion that Exposure gear (which he has apparently never heard) imparts colouration to the sound! - this is an assumption of sizeable proportions which goes unsubstantiated and unchallenged. If I made such unsubstantiated yet critical claims about a piece of Naim equipment I had never heard I would be shot down in flames on this forum.

This is only the most recent example of unswerving dedication to the naim cause which is naive in the extreme. Of course as members of this forum many of us are heavily committed to the brand but in many ways that's an even better reason to question our fiscal commitment as Tanais for example has done. I would hate to think that a newbie stumbling across this site would buy a CD5 without comparing Arcam, Nad, Meridian too just because they listen to what the forum view is.

Too often those who prefer some other piece of equipment to naim are told that they should wash their ears out, that they are somehow profoundly deaf or the only reason they prefer the Alba TK682 to the CDX was because the CDX wasn't on Mana and the earth spike hadn't been watered in the last 24 hours!

If the Forum is to give significant value there should be a little less dogma and a little more open-mindedness. A strength of forum's such as this is their supposed impartiality. It's getting to the point here where people are frightened to admit to liking anyone else's kit for fear of the ridicule that will result.

Now - anybody ever compared a Michell Orca/Alecto against comparably priced naim eg 82/180/hicap? I was at Michell engineering yesterday getting a new belt for my deck and have to say the standards of construction and finish on the Delphini and Orca put everything else I've ever seen to shame - only wish I could have heard them.

Jonathan

Steven

There was talk on the old Naim forum that the Exposure power amp circuits were a rip-off of the Nap 250 and if I remember correctly Julian knew this and was not particularly happy about it.

If anyone has reservations about the sound then other gear is obviously available. These designs will inevitably reflect the tastes of the designers. If you want the best attributes of the Naim sound, without perceived harshness, then perhaps try some Spectral or SimAudio gear, if it’s available in your area. These designs have many of the same attributes except that they are even more revealing, tending toward the “neutral” side of musical reproduction. And be prepared to pay, especially in the case of Spectral gear. Obviously, you will lose some degree of those Naim characteristics that I, and many others, love so much, but it may be what others are looking for. But it is impossible to eliminate the Naim sound from Naim gear.

And I have a quick few words on “neutral” reproduction, as often touted in advertisements and review magazines: what is it? How does one determine neutrality? Does Naim present music in a more “realistic” and “neutral” way than, say, Krell? With all the studio recordings, recordings at clubs, live recordings, and so on, how is one supposed to know what music “sounds” like? It varies. And so it’s presentation must vary. One can only compare stereo payback to one’s experience, which is certainly not as vast as the recordings available out there. It is obviously possible for some lucky souls to hear the BPO live and to then compare it to the sound of their stereo, but can such an assessment be made for every venue on every night a recording is made? No. Therefore, I write, enjoy the Naim sound. Revel in it. But probably don’t buy Revel.

[This message was edited by Todd on WEDNESDAY 13 September 2000 at 20:33.]

As far as I know, Exposure use a full-complementary feedback topology. Workings of it are different from a quasi-complementary design. Quasi-complementary designs were popular years back because of lack of quality pnp devices.

Fact is, there are several basic topologies when it comes to power amp circuits.