Analyze stereo system sound ?
Posted by: Arye_Gur on 14 September 2000
As I read here many people are analyzing the stereo system sound - words like harshness,
describing kinds of bass forms (like deep bass)
and more.
I don't think it is the right way to judge the
sound.
When I listen to music at home, the only thing I care about is how "great" is the pleasure I get
out of the music. I'm sure from my experience that
I get higher pleasure out of a better stereo system.
You get the pleasure out of so many details that
compose the whole music "picture" so I think it is
not right to try to judge the sound by the details but only by the complete result.
I love Naim because of two reasons -
The first - Naim gives me the greatest pleasure
while listening to music comapres to any other
good system I've heared here in Israel.
The second , and it is very important too, I think, Naim dealer (at least here)is one of best
pro and most of the other dealers don't have the
ability to put a system together the way he does.
He gives me a great trust that puting a money (and it is a lot of money....) on a naim, beside
the "pleasure" factor, someone will take care if something goes wrong at my home.
Posted on: 15 September 2000 by Simon Jenkins
quote:
When I listen to music at home, the only thing I care about is how "great" is the pleasure I get
out of the music. I'm sure from my experience that
I get higher pleasure out of a better stereo system.
Arie,
Couldn't agree more. The whole point of a hi-fi system is to listen to and enjoy music. I would hope that nobody here has forgotten that.
For myself I can say that 90% of my listening time is spent just enjoying the music. Currently it's probably a little less as I have done a fairly large amount of upgrading over the last six months. I always find after an upgrade of any type that the system does sound better, but also tend to analyze what needs to be done next. This tends to pass a month or so after the upgrade and I just get back to enjoying the music and waiting for the next upgrade.
Currently I would say I'm probably only really listening to the music about 60% of the time. Have just bought a CD5 and am comparing this to my LP12, also just borrowed a Chord Solid cable to the CD5 yesterday so got to spend the weekend listening to that.
Simon
Posted on: 15 September 2000 by Arye_Gur
Bill Smith,
I'm sure that what we are going over through our days do affects the way we listen to music and I'm not talking only about physical aspects like flying in a noisy airplane.
First of all, the mood I'm in at the moment causes
me to decide what kind of music I want to listen too.
Secondly, I want to listen to music because I know it will change my mood - for example the music can relieves me. Other times I'm in a mood in which I can't listen to music at all.
And I'm sure all tese kind of "moods" are a cause
of what I'n going through.
Posted on: 20 September 2000 by Don Braid
I've just read a great book called Golf is Not a Game of Perfect, and if you don't like golf, tough.
My point is that the book goes right to the heart of Arie's wonderful post. Golfers who think - head down, left arm straight - always screw it up. They have to put themselves in a zone where they believe they can hit the target. Then it can work (although not always.)
It's the same with listening. Think, and it's no fun. Just be with the music, let it flow, and the little HiFi artifacts fade into enjoyment. I'd say everyone should spend 10% of listening time analyzing the system and the rest just being with it.
Don
Posted on: 21 September 2000 by Mike Hanson
>> Golfers who think - head down, left arm straight - always screw it up. <<
The problem with this whole topic is that we haven't made the very important distinction between striving for better versus being satisfied with what we've already got.
When we are learning to golf and want to improve, we must analyse what we are doing wrong. It's not enough to say "Just do it". In the same way, if we are trying to enhance our music listening experience, we must determine what needs to be fixed or improved. Simply saying "I'm not happy" doesn't help to determine how to make it better.
Back to golf: Once we've decided that we play "well enough", we can relax and start to enjoy the game without dissecting each swing. In the same way, once our stereo is "good enough", we can sit back and enjoy the music with cringing at its inadequecies.
The distinction between these two states of mind is crucial. Of course, some people will never be content and will always be striving for more, while others will always be happy with what they have (i.e. like a pig in shit). There's nothing wrong with staying on a constant uphill climb, just as there's nothing wrong with recognizing that your satisfied with your current system. Regardless of the state your in, though, you must match your analysis (or lack thereof) to match it. Neither is "wrong". Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Smilies do not a forum make.
[This message was edited by Mike Hanson on THURSDAY 21 September 2000 at 18:53.]
Posted on: 21 September 2000 by Don Braid
Mike, the point of the book - as I take it - is that you work hard to bring your skill to a certain level, then trust your body to execute that skill without conscious thought. It works. When I used to play decent golf as a kid (once I was a four handicap, honest), we'd talk about being "unconscious" during a good round. That's it - when you're hot, it just happens. But our conscious minds are so powerful that you almost start to wonder if this is right, and then you lose that blissful state of unity between mind and body.
Susan Natrass, the Canadian Olympic trap shooter, said the other day that she screwed up her last shots because, just before the pigeons flew up, she thought, "Okay, Susan, good finish." She missed twice. Later she reflected: "That was a Bad idea - never think..'
The point for audio is that we should do everything we can do get our systems sounding as good as possible, then just let all that go and enjoy. That's when the goose bumps come. Sometimes I have to force myself out the analyzing mode and into the accepting mode. It's tough to do sometimes, but it leads to better golf - and listening.
Don
Posted on: 21 September 2000 by Mike Hanson
quote:
you work hard to bring your skill to a certain level, then trust your body to execute that skill without conscious thought
Exactly! During the learning/upgrade phase, you worry about the details and how to improve it. When you get to an acceptable level, you stop worrying and start enjoying. There are definitely two different phases, and both must be recognized for what they are. Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Smilies do not a forum make.
Posted on: 21 September 2000 by Greg Beatty
...the system is doing something irritating (like hashy sounding) or fundamentally wrong.
Even in the Golf, ya gotta hit the ball. And to enjoy it, the swing shouldn't cause pain.
I've hear *many* systems that failed on these counts or, if they succeeded in not offending, were *so boring* that the mind easily wanders.
- GregB
Freedom is not in finding the Holy Grail but in stopping the search for it
Posted on: 21 September 2000 by Arye_Gur
If you can play golf without conscious thought
and playing golf is an active act, sure you can listen to music without conscious thought because
listening to music is a passive aca.
Arie
Posted on: 21 September 2000 by Mike Hanson
quote:
If you can play golf without conscious thought and playing golf is an active act, sure you can listen to music without conscious thought because listening to music is a passive aca
Let me make something very clear, because I don't think you've understood what I'm saying. If I'm listening to music, then I'm not usually analysing the equipment. I'm just enjoying the music!
However, if I'm attempting to improve my system, then I will analyse many aspects, including measuring my basic enjoyment level. I'll also listen to the PRaT, tonal qualities, and imaging abilities. I'll determine what's wrong, then I'll decide which pieced of equipment to purchase and how to tweak it. Once I've made these changes and I'm happy with the analyses of the results, I'll just sit back and simply enjoy it.
Additionally, as Greg pointed out earlier, if my enjoyment is interrupted by an apparent problem in the system, I might start to analyze it again with the hopes of fixing it them resuming my simple pleasure.
It's inevitable that I'll occasionally shift between these two modes of analysing/fixing versus simply-enjoying. I don't know why you can't accept that. Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Smilies do not a forum make.
Posted on: 21 September 2000 by Bob Edwards
Vuk--
LOL--Where do we send checks ?
Cheers,
Bob
Posted on: 22 September 2000 by Mike Hanson
It's bright in the spotlight!
I admit it... I'm guilty of the sin of ANALYSIS. 
That doesn't mean I don't enjoy the music, though.
Remember when you tried to trick me by replacing your Tannoys with Albions. In a blind test, I used the same words to describe the differences (smooth, natural, coherent, etc.) that I've always used to describe the qualities of the Albions. I guess analysis does work on occasion. 
BTW, that Pat Metheny track is still a great measure of both PRaT and tonal abilities. I'll be bringing it your place again when I come to listen to the Mana (once it actually shows up). 
Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Smilies do not a forum make.
Posted on: 22 September 2000 by Arye_Gur
I wonder - are you often go to analyze system - and if you do - why?
For example - I play snooker once a week - do you go to analyze stereo once a week ?
Frequently I phone Naim dealer and ask him if there is something new to listen to - most of time there is not - and when there is something new - it is too expensive.... so I don't have to rush for it.
Arie
Posted on: 22 September 2000 by Ian P
quote:
________________________________________________
However, if I'm attempting to improve my system, then I will analyse many aspects, including measuring my basic enjoyment level.
________________________________________________
Heisenburg would have had something to say about this I think 
Posted on: 22 September 2000 by Mike Hanson
>> I wonder - are you often go to analyze system - and if you do - why? <<
Enjoying music and analyzing stereo equipment are two different activities. I derive pleasure from both.
My mother had a plaque in her kitchen that read, "Life is a mystery to be lived, not a problem to be solved." I could not disagree more!!!
Sometimes it's fun to blindly enjoy things, but only a fool would be happy to be mired in that state. It's all fine and dandy if everything is coming up roses, but what happens when you're not happy? How do you fix it if you don't understand it?
I'm very satisfied most of the time, because I can recognize when things are not right, and I know how to fix them. Too many people in this world can't, and that's why it's so screwed up.
Passion without understanding is a dangerous thing.
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Smilies do not a forum make.
Posted on: 22 September 2000 by Mike Hanson
>> Heisenburg would have had something to say about this I think <<
Good point. However, we're talking about measuring a nebulous thing like "pleasure". First, it's a relative measurement. (e.g. does this make me happier than that?) Second, I don't expect the measurement to be overly precise, although I do believe will be somewhat accurate. (For a good definition of "accuracy" versus "precision", see http://bell.mma.edu/~jbouch/Glossary/Precision.html.)
I think that I think, therefore I think that I am. Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Smilies do not a forum make.
Posted on: 23 September 2000 by Arye_Gur
You are enjoing to SEPARATE subjects
1 - is listening to music
2 - analyzing stereo systems
The link of these two subjects is the stereo system. Okay, I understand quickly if you explain
slow....
For now and on when we will talk I'll know to make the difference.
Arie
Posted on: 24 September 2000 by Mike Hanson
>> For now and on when we will talk I'll know to make the difference. <<
This is always a good thing. Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Smilies do not a forum make.
