Great Posts Got Me Thinking!

Posted by: Jack on 03 November 2008

Hi,

I’ve become extremely interested in all this distributed audio after reading many of the excellent posts on the forum, thank you. I am considering a relatively low cost solution to experience distributed audio and see just how good the sound quality can be. So using much of the information in the posts I have been digging around to see what solution might fit best.

I think I have narrowed things down (based on forum posts etc) to either Sonos or the SB solution but wondered if anyone can help with some more of the detail please? I don’t currently own any Apple equipment (except iPod) so have discounted to a certain extent, should I re-consider?

I guess my requirements are something along the following lines:

- want to stream my music collection to my Naim system
- want all my CD collection and existing FLAC/MP3 songs on a headless system (possibly NAS?) close to my existing system/router etc but away from hi-fi.
- want to rip all my music collection using EAC
- want to be able to stream different music to at least 3 different rooms. One of the rooms will be my hi-fi room where I would like to connect to my Naim system via external DAC
- the two other rooms will need local amplification and speakers (possibly ceiling)
- creation of playlists must be intuitive, the ease of iTunes appeals
- ability to play high resolution formats 24/96 appeals
- remote controller essential, for use in any room
- not convinced about wireless quality around the house, be good if works OK but could hard wire or use mains system (devolo?)
- want good quality sound via the Naim system with FLAC

I guess to start with I don’t want to spend a significant amount in case I am disappointed but at the same time I don’t want to have to replace everything later (thinking in the region of <£1k for a couple of rooms with DAC and NAS).

It seems that either the Sonos system or the Logitech Squeezebox system would be good candidates combined with the Beresford DAC (not sure which one but < £200).

Sonos Sonos

I have a few questions if someone could help answer:

I am told the Sonos system doesn’t need a music server as such and can automatically pick up all the music on a NAS via the CIFS protocol, is this correct?

How do playlists get created? Is this on the Sonos remote controller or can I upload iTunes playlists?

I understand the Sonos will not natively play 24/96 but will downsample such formats to 16/44, is this correct?

I understand I can use the iTouch (I don’t own one yet!) as the remote controller for Sonos. Does this give the same functionality as the Sonos remote including controlling of zones etc?

How does the Sonos remote controller compare with the iTouch, I quite like the look of the Sonos controller but obviously the iTouch can be used for lots of other things?

Logitech Squeezebox Logitech Squeezebox

I understand I can load the Slimserver software on a NAS and the rest is pretty straight forward, are there any gotchas?

I understand the SB will play 24/96

Is there any preference to the SB/Duet versus the SB3, To a certain extent the classic looks good but I guess Duet is a much better remote. I assume I cant use the iTouch with the classic?

Is the zone capability of SB as good as Sonos? I get the feeling Sonos is a better quality solution but not sure exactly why?

Again I understand I can use the iTouch (I don’t own one yet!) as the remote controller for SB instead of Duet. Does this give the same functionality as the Duet remote including controlling of zones etc? I assume the Duet does control multiple zones?

Other Other

Any other DACs to seriously consider (cant afford Lavry)

Any NAS recommendations?

Any experience of Devolo or other Ethernet mains solutions?

Anything I have missed?

Sorry for the long post!!!!

Thanks in anticipation

Jack
Posted on: 03 November 2008 by gary1 (US)
Jack,

1. Yes, you do not need your PC running to access music if you have a NAS.
2. Playlists are generated either on the DTC or HC or if you have a rhapsody subscription this can be done there and will be recognized by Sonos. Finally you could just play individual songs and decide if you want to create a playlist and save as such.
3. I do not use itunes and Sonos does not support itunes at the moment. You'd have to convert itunes to an mp3 format and go from there.
4. Yes only 16/44, but it probably has the ability to play 24/96 on the chip, but it hasn't "been activated"
5. Yes same functionality. Sonos for itouch just released--s ee demo on sonos website
6. HC remote very easy to use. If I was buying now I'd probably go with itouch, it's cheaper and more versatile
7. Sonos very easy to establish different zones and link/unlink
8. Soundwise, I think Sonos is superior and more musical. Others will disagree.
9. NAS size depends on how many CDs to rip or can you fit this on your computer. I like D-link DNS 323 with Seagate Barracuda drives. Sounds really good and D-link about $199 plus drives. That's for back up and raid. If not concerned for $199 a 500TB Seagate drive will do.
10. One additional thought-- you could get a Sonos or 2 or 3 and get a rhapsody subscription for $12/month and forgo the NAS for now and the ripping. Most of your CDs will probably be on rhapsody, it's mp3 as opposed to ripped EAC wav, but to get started and not spend additional monies not a bad thought.
11. Several AE with a single itouch and speakers is probably the cheapest way to go. Haven't heard so I can't comment on the sound.


Food for thought. Enjoy

Gary
Posted on: 03 November 2008 by JY
<<I understand I can load the Slimserver software on a NAS and the rest is pretty straight forward, are there any gotchas?>>

Yes you can load SqueezeCenter server code into a NAS if you are well versed in Linux. But you probably do not want to, it will slow down your NAS to a crawl. Especially if you have a sizable music libray. I tried it on my Buffalo NAS and it was simply too slow. Each remote control keystroke takes seconds to respond.

<I understand the SB will play 24/96>
It plays 24/96, but the output is 24/48 max. So you will not see much sound improvement there.

<<I assume I cant use the iTouch with the classic?>>

You can use the iPod Touch with the SB Classic. There is a plugin called iPeng. It is quite acceptable. But pales when compared to the Touch controlling the iTunes.

<<Is the zone capability of SB as good as Sonos? I get the feeling Sonos is a better quality solution but not sure exactly why?>>

Not sure about how the Sonos zoning works. But you can certainly plays different SBs located in different locations, either with seperate music or sync'ed.

<<Again I understand I can use the iTouch (I don’t own one yet!) as the remote controller for SB instead of Duet. Does this give the same functionality as the Duet remote including controlling of zones etc? I assume the Duet does control multiple zones?>>

I have not played with the Touch interface to SB much. But it is just a Touch/iphone friendly browser based application, so I assume you should be able to choose different players.
Posted on: 04 November 2008 by goldfinch
Hi Jack,
just a thought, as DAC is the most important part in the music server chain I would spend most of my budget in it. A cheap PC or Mac can do the rest of job (streaming via wifi or not).

Enjoy,
Posted on: 04 November 2008 by goldfinch
Hi Frank F,
As far as I know the Konnekt is a firewire to spdif convertor so you need to connect your PC via firewire to it. This way you avoid using any internal PC sound device (sound card or built in audio chip). Your PC audio device will still works under windows but the software used for playback will use the Konnekt).

I don't know the Konnekt drivers but I would try the usual drivers that bypass Windows K-mixer to see if they work. There are three options to do it:
- Asio driver, better than asio4all, download the asio recommended for mediamonkey ( http://home.scarlet.be/ruben.castelein/MM/MM-Plugins.htm )
- out_wave.dll (this is the one prefered at computer audiophile site, used in Mediamonkey).
- kernel streaming (ks). You can download it at http://www.stevemonks.com/ksplugin/

You can install all of them and compare if they make any difference in sound quality in your system as long as all these plugins can be installed at the same time, only need to select each one in the options of Foobar or other software used. To make sure windows mixer is bypassed you only have to check windows volume is disabled and doesn't operate.

Configuring these drivers is easy. You have to 1.copy the dll file in the plugins folder of the software, 2. Select the driver in audio software configuration menu 3. Configure some driver (optional) parameters such as latencies and buffer. I think Asio needs assign channels too to make it sound but I can't remember now).

Foobar (free) and Mediamonkey is the software I have tested so far. Both are great but Mediamonkey is more visual appealing. Let me know which one are you going to use and I will give you more precise instructions about how to configure the driver.
It is recommendable to stop all audio processing features (fading, dsp modes, equalization...)

This way you get perfect-bit streaming to the Konnekt,

For ripping you can use exact audio copy -EAC- (free) or Plextools for Plextor high quality Cd drivers. EAC is great and can be configured to make perfect rippings with control over reading mistakes.

NAS is a system for connecting an external hard disk to a network, but you still need a PC or a NAS transport device compatible to access to it.

Hope it helps!

Please post your impressions,
Posted on: 05 November 2008 by Jack
Thanks for the replies.

Gary1....a couple of queries on the AE please:

- does it have digital and analogue out?
- does it have a wired ethernet connection?

I understand I can have multiple AE in different rooms and that I can select music for whatever room I want but can not have different music playing in different rooms at the same time (the same music yes but not different, is that right?

What's your experience of audio over WLAN?

JY.....if Slimserver on NAS is a performance nightmare then is the recommended set up to have Slimserver on its own system talking over the network to NAS?

Goldfinch.....any recommendations on the DACs between the Beresford and the Lavry please?

Thanks again guys

Jack
Posted on: 05 November 2008 by gary1 (US)
Jack, don't know about the SB issue you talk about above, but they now have an SB receiver on the website priced at the same money as AE. Unlike AE, you can stream different music to different locations. Worth a look.
Posted on: 08 November 2008 by JY
quote:
Originally posted by Jack:
- does it have digital and analogue out?
- does it have a wired ethernet connection?

Yes it has analogue out with a mini-jack, also has TOSLINK digital out, also from the same mini-jack.

quote:
I understand I can have multiple AE in different rooms and that I can select music for whatever room I want but can not have different music playing in different rooms at the same time (the same music yes but not different, is that right?

That is correct as far as I know. But oif course if you have multiple iTunes PC you can do different music over the same storage device.

quote:
What's your experience of audio over WLAN?

Works fine for me generally. Of course there is also that feeling that it is not 100% soniuc wise, but I cannot tell the difference.

quote:
JY.....if Slimserver on NAS is a performance nightmare then is the recommended set up to have Slimserver on its own system talking over the network to NAS?

Yes, I have a laptop set up mapped to a 1.5TB NAS drive. Slimserver is installed on the PC with the music folder pointing to the mapped drive. Works fine if still a bit slow with so much music. I think if you dont have 10s of thousands of track it should be quite OK.

quote:
Goldfinch.....any recommendations on the DACs between the Beresford and the Lavry please?

I have bought and sold a Benchmark DAC1, Beresford DAC and now using the Lavry DAC. The Benchmark and Lavry are both fantastic for their price. The Beresford is not much better than the SB3 DAC, at least in my system. I have 202/200/Hicap/Ariva. I think the Benchmark is probably better engineered and physically better constructed than the Lavry, and probably more accurate. But to me the Lavry sounds warmer and suits the Naim system better. The Benchmark can sound a bit sterile.
Posted on: 09 November 2008 by gary1 (US)
quote:
Originally posted by Frank F:
Hi Goldfinch,

I set up Media Monkey with the Asio driver and set up everything in the way JS said but no sound over headphones. The TC control panel says there is no digital input!!

ff


Frank, why don't you directly contact JS at the store. Their number is available via the NaimUSA website under "US Retailers." I'm sure he will be willing to assist you in the final process. They provide the phone number and a direct website link where you can e-mail JS directly if you choose. May be worth a few dollars/Euros to have direct feedback and get it solved.
Posted on: 09 November 2008 by Jack
HI,

Thanks for all your replies most helpful. Decided to start off with a Squeezebox receiver. Also ordered an iTouch as it seemed more versatile than the Logitech remote. I'll have to see how that works out.

Should arrive tomorrow or Tuesday. I'll start off simple and just play around at first then look to add a DAC, dedicated music server/NAS later.

Thanks again

Jack
Posted on: 09 November 2008 by gary1 (US)
Frank, congrats and enjoy
Posted on: 10 November 2008 by goldfinch
Hi Frank, I have no experience with vista, but if the sound device (Konnekt 8)is not making any hardware conflict the problem could be the asio driver is not compatible. You can still try with the wave out and direct kernel dll, maybe these work.
Posted on: 10 November 2008 by goldfinch
quote:
Originally posted by Jack:
Goldfinch.....any recommendations on the DACs between the Beresford and the Lavry please?

Thanks again guys

Jack


Jack, I think your system deserves a DAC better than the Beresford, which I think it is excellent in its price range.
It depends on how much you want to spend, in the forum you can find a lot of opinions about the Lavry, I have posted my opinion many times, I think it offers great value for money and its relatively indifference to the transport used make it a very good match for music servers based on standard computers, wifi devices etc.