garyi, you're slipping

Yea I know I am trying to justify my powermac, but that has a bigger screen and is faster.

I keep telling myself that mine is upgradable, but it ain't making me feel better!

How the hell do they get the sceen on that mac without it toppling?

Gary, you must get one - the Marco and Bub show is now transmitting in super widescreen.

Indeed, only the mac has an excellent spam filter, I wouldn't see much.

No. Because there's no upgradability, when a new, sexy Mac comes out your old one becomes a paper weight.

For the same money as a 20" iMac you can buy a 2.66GHz Dell with 80GB, 512MB, DVD, 20.1" flat panel, 128MB video, Dolby 5.1 sound, etc.

Hmmm

I have both a Mac and a PC.

quote:

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I have always steered clear of Mac's because I have to do real work and I don't draw pictures or write newspapers for a living.

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With the Mac, it is a tool that you use to do productive, interesting and creative things in a fun and hassle free way.

With the PC, you are the tool, and the PC is the task.

Just my bi-computerdom 2c worth

Cheers

John...

Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary

Why does it always turn into a mac vs PC debate!



They both have their uses.

Alex: macs run a variant of UNIX now. You can run some UNIX software, but to run PC software you still need an emulator.

Regards

Stephen

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Originally posted by Ludwig:
No. Because there's no upgradability, when a new, sexy Mac comes out your old one becomes a paper weight.

For the same money as a 20" iMac you can buy a 2.66GHz Dell with 80GB, 512MB, DVD, 20.1" flat panel, 128MB video, Dolby 5.1 sound, etc.

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Ludwig, this isn't quite true. You can upgrade the CPU on most Macs and peripherals, hard drives, video cards are all upgradable too. OK, so sometimes you need a whole new Mac whereas on a PC you might just get a CPU + Motherboard. But in my (PC) experience faster CPUs demand faster memory and other peripherals anyhow - and not everyone is DIY savvy. I still use several pre-G4 macs for various tasks.

Your comment about the Dell proves that Macs are not expensive! And I know which I'd rather have in my house. The PC is relegated to the studio.



Regards

Stephen

http://www.google.com/press/zeitgeist.html contains an interesting snapshot of what real Internet users are using.

Paul

It's worth pointing out that $1,300 of the 20-inch iMac's $2200 price is allocated to a very nice 20-inch 1680x1050 LCD monitor, assuming that the screen this iMac uses is the same as Apple's 20-inch Cinema Display (the size and resolution match). If so, you're getting a rather impressive LCD in the package, as the Apple LCDs are among the best I've seen.

But I do take the point about the lack of upgradability in these all-in-ones.

Joe

Alex the G5 is apples top of the range power desktop machine, its fully upgradable in most respects, it can take four harddrives, two drive bays extra PCI ards, better graphics cards etc etc etc.

The only macs which can't be upgraded particuarly are the imacs, although they can take airport and extra memory.

Its worth pointing out the imac is for a certain market, and this market is very popular, the imac is small, attractive, burns CDS/DVDs, does the internet, does OfficeX, does most everything infact in one package. It has USB2, Firewire, External screen support, erthunet (one day I will spell that correctly) audio out etc etc etc.

I bought a powermac because I thought I would upgrade it, to be honest I don't need to it does everything nicely right now.

However I lust after a G5 but unlike PCs its not because I need more, its because like naim I want more ;-)

Really people need to get over this apple not upgradeable thing becasue its bollocks.

ag,

Microsoft Office runs just fine and native on any mac. Also most Adobe products run native as well.

Now lets talk about doing 'real work'. For large computational tasks window's based PCs are not up to the task IMHO - for that you really need UNIX. OS-X is BSD-UNIX with a nice front end. It runs all the GNU compilers just fine. You get gcc, f2c for free. The new G5 chip has great floating point performance -- it's an IBM Power4 chip - the same ones that go into their supercomputers. Currently I do most of my data analysis on a dual Xeon running redhat linux (a UNIX clone), and my fluff stuff (powerpoint, word,...) on an ibook. With the new G5 I could have a true one-box solution -- I'm waiting for a few others to guinea-pig the new Fortran compilers on the G5, at which point I will switch over.

re. upgrading - outside of the home, no one upgrades workstations - it doesnt make financial sense - memory, bus speed, chips all develop in parallel. Lifecycles on these type of machines is 2 years, then you buy new - Moore's law and all that.

Dan

Dan, just a point of correction.

Adobe was created because mac was created. Back in the Mac 512k days Adobe create Pagemaker and a company was born. I remember it well I was at school and suddenly one day appeared around 20 macs with pagemaker on it, suddenly everyone was welcomed to the world of electronic publication what a great time that was. A little while later windows interface appeared with poor poor attempts at software which could compare to adobe. I guess this is where apple got its branding as a graphics/design computer PCs simply did not have a chance back then. (I am not saying that about now Mr Robinson!)

It would be fairer to say Adobe runs well on PCs ;-)

Gary,

You're right, but just last week I went down to the local mega-store to pick up photoshop elements and all I could find were damn windows versions! arghh...

Dan

Alex its only a bit of fun!

Dan believe it or not Jessops sell elements for OSX in its shops, its a great programme.

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Originally posted by garyi:
Dan believe it or not Jessops sell elements for OSX in its shops, its a great programme.

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OK, next time I'm in Watford, I'll be all set!
Dan

Opps, sorry

In which case I am sure you are aware the apple site sells it.

However you might be a bit like me, into town of a weekend for some spendy spends which the web just does not fit.

Its all about physical contact, tactile purchasing you see.

You Apple folks are sensitive.

I was focusing on the consumer owned iMacs, re: my upgradability comment. To have the components at the mercy of Moore's Law tied physically to the part that's a decent investment with some longevity (LCD) is bad design IMO. So is not allowing all kinds of expansion cards and drives. An iMac is just a laptop on steroids.

And Steve Jobs is an autocratic prick.



PS- Geek trivia: Did you know the iPAQ PDA was originally designed around Linux?

I think what upsets PC users the most is that mac users have something to get sensitive over.

Lets face it who gives a toss about a Dell PC eh?

Nothing to get get excited about regardless of what you use. We're talking about boring computers here. Are you sensitive about your dishwasher?

Oh yes, I am having an affair with it

Ludders,

Fair point - what was I thinking? I've started to Miele vs. Bosch vs. Asko thread.

cheers,

Dan

Can't be as bad as the ironbru advert where the unborn baby is tempted out with a can.

That sounds like a Virgin Mobile ad.

PS- Do any of you Migo?

quote:

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You Apple folks are sensitive.

I was focusing on the consumer owned iMacs, re: my upgradability comment. To have the components at the mercy of Moore's Law tied physically to the part that's a decent investment with some longevity (LCD) is bad design IMO. So is not allowing all kinds of expansion cards and drives. An iMac is just a laptop on steroids.

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Heh, sometimes we get 'sensitive' for good reason.

Years ago, back in the mid to late eighties, being a 'gadget' person, always interested in technology, I started going to computer shows, oggling the latest and greatest of this new fangled device. DOS was to me, a layman, quite impenetrable, whereas the litle Mac with it's GUI was the opposite.

But I had no need for a computer in my life, and the idea of having to take on a great deal of learning at my own expense and time, was not appealing, so they stayed an non manifested interest.

Fast forward to the mid nineties, when I did a full time 6 week 'short' course in Win 3.11, to develop my work skills. Crashes, freezes etc, were all part of the experience, despite the fun, usually it only being the techs who could rectify matters, the instructors just throwing their hands in the air, and putting one on another machine on the LAN.

So I had some rudimentary skills for the workplace, which some time shortly thereafter changed, and hence my newfound skills languished, as I now quite stubbornly refused to have a Windoze box in my home, due to the ongoing problems/high maintainence of that particular OS - 'state of the art' at the time.

Then along came the internet, and now my interest in computing for the home really began to grow. I discussed it with numerous friends, all of whom I supposed more knowledgeable/experienced than myself, and found that whenever I expressed an interest in getting a mac, my views were vociferously howled down.

Of course, as the uncertain computer owner to be, one always listens to ones peers, and just on two years ago, my first computer entered the home, a second hand Pentium 11 machine running 98SE. I still had strong reservations about PC's, but the combination of the right price, and convincing arguments from well meaning friends was hard to ignore.

I did a brief 'refresher' course at a local adult learning center, which covered such interesting topics as how to hold the mouse, and copying and pasting, , a friend loaded the OS and set it all up for me re the internet and all, and away I went.

I quickly 'took' to it, and pushed the boundaries at every turn, particulary as regards learning the OS, and wound up after 18mnths or so, of pretty much being able to troubleshoot, edit the registry etc.

Soon I felt the need for a new machine. Partly the 'need for speed' but partly because I also realised that a large percentage of my time was being taken up with maintaining the machine, dealing with the constant and nagging intrusiveness of the interface, and the innate seemingly needless complexity.

I considered both a new Windoze box with XP, or a Mac. Well, as to the 'we apple types are sensitive' the howls of derision I experienced from both friends and acquaintances was quite extreme. A number for people went right out of their way to try and dissuade me from buying a Mac.

I have no idea why this is. Perhaps it's that for those who have acquired a large degree of skill through trial and error, the thought of something that works is challenging in a way that is uncomfortable. Perhaps it is for those like so called 'audiophiles' for whom the medium is more interesting than the music, where the tinkering with the PC is more meaningful than actually doing much that is productive with it.

I agonised, but eventually trusted my own instincts, and did a very great deal of research, before buying, not without some trepidation I might add - mainly due to the dissenting voices in the background from well meaning friends etc.

So I have both. A PC and a Mac. Within the first week, I fitted an ethernet card to the PC, installed the drivers, and networked the two. I had never networked anything before. It took quite a few hours working out the TCP/IP addresses on the PC, and about all of ten minutes on the Mac. In fact from that end, dead easy.

Anyway, heheh, I don't want to be doing a big Mac/switcher 'rave' here, however, on the issue of sensitivity, yes, I do 'bite' sometimes, as I encountered so much derision before my purchase, and at times still also after it.

However, I've also learned that in point of fact, I've come to know more than quite a few of my computer friends, as where they've stuck with heresay, I've gone out there, done the research, and made a choice.

On the issue of upgradability, one could criticise the all-in-one approach of an iMac. However, IMHO, such critcism is more theoretical than literal. Yes, with a modular tower system, one can keep it 'up to date' for longer, by upgrading etc, however all computers have a finite usable life, and one has to look at the benefits cost wise v's simply putting the sale price of the machine + the upgrade funds towards a new box.

Very few of my PC friends, who touted the un-upgradability argument against an imac, actually upgrade/add on at all, unless they have a very specific/specialist use for doing so. Usually by the time one aspect of the system needs upgrading, so does everything else, and they simply buy a completely new machine.

Still, I did agonise re all in one, or tower, but settled on an iMac, and am still in love with the thing. It is without doubt one of the very best purchases I've ever made, given the amount of use I put it to, and the freedom from frustration that it offers, and the joy and fun of using it.

Anyway, pls excuse the long rant but now at least you know some of my little computing tale/journey, and why some of us Mac/bi computer users get, er, sensitive.

Warmest Regards

John...

Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary