HDX update
Posted by: jon h on 13 October 2008
i have just had paul stephenson here with the very latest (a few days old?) spec hdx -- a lidless unit which Roy has been working on to reduce/remove the issues I identified on my system, Martin Colloms heard on his, and which subsequently were identified and agreed by the factory.
The problem was the "system injection" issue of the HDX, whereby merely having it switched on caused a somewhat catastrophic collapse in the sound quality of the whole system, irrespective of input.
You will remember that Paul and Roy came here some weeks ago with both an original unit and a work in progress unit which was undoubtedly much better than the original. We all agreed there was scope for more improvement.
If we work on the basis of 100% of the original problem, then the prototype unit brought here o the first visit here was somewhere around 66% better. Today, with the very latest specification, I would put the figure at somewhere in the 90s. So almost all of the lost ground has been made up.
Its not perfect -- for that to be the case, then there would be zero insertion loss and you wouldnt be able to tell whether the unit was on or off. Today, however, all the harshness and closed-in-ness has gone. The only criticism we heard was a slight "smallness" to the system sound, and both Paul and I agreed as to its existence and magnitude. So work will continue at HQ as part of the ongoing R&D which naim has always applied to all products.
Clearly Naim has done a lot of work on this issue, and it has reaped substantial rewards for doing so. With the (small) rider of the (small) residual effect on the latest spec unit, I'm happy that we are agreed that the justifications for the original criticism have now been fixed in production.
On my system at least, this is a MUCH better product than before.
Thanks to paul for taking the time to drive all the way up here to validate the work on my system.
The problem was the "system injection" issue of the HDX, whereby merely having it switched on caused a somewhat catastrophic collapse in the sound quality of the whole system, irrespective of input.
You will remember that Paul and Roy came here some weeks ago with both an original unit and a work in progress unit which was undoubtedly much better than the original. We all agreed there was scope for more improvement.
If we work on the basis of 100% of the original problem, then the prototype unit brought here o the first visit here was somewhere around 66% better. Today, with the very latest specification, I would put the figure at somewhere in the 90s. So almost all of the lost ground has been made up.
Its not perfect -- for that to be the case, then there would be zero insertion loss and you wouldnt be able to tell whether the unit was on or off. Today, however, all the harshness and closed-in-ness has gone. The only criticism we heard was a slight "smallness" to the system sound, and both Paul and I agreed as to its existence and magnitude. So work will continue at HQ as part of the ongoing R&D which naim has always applied to all products.
Clearly Naim has done a lot of work on this issue, and it has reaped substantial rewards for doing so. With the (small) rider of the (small) residual effect on the latest spec unit, I'm happy that we are agreed that the justifications for the original criticism have now been fixed in production.
On my system at least, this is a MUCH better product than before.
Thanks to paul for taking the time to drive all the way up here to validate the work on my system.
Posted on: 13 October 2008 by thesherrif
quote:The problem was the "system injection" issue of the HDX, whereby merely having it switched on caused a somewhat catastrophic collapse in the sound quality of the whole system, irrespective of input.
Sorry, not with you?
How would you know what an HDX sounded like switched off ?
Posted on: 13 October 2008 by dave simpson
Jon is referring to the impact on the sound of other sources when the HDX is left wired into the system and switched on or off.
Posted on: 13 October 2008 by Claus-Thoegersen
quote:Originally posted by jon honeyball:
i have just had paul stephenson here with the very latest (a few days old?) spec hdx -- a lidless unit which Roy has been working on to reduce/remove the issues I identified on my system, Martin Colloms heard on his, and which subsequently were identified and agreed by the factory.
The problem was the "system injection" issue of the HDX, whereby merely having it switched on caused a somewhat catastrophic collapse in the sound quality of the whole system, irrespective of input.
You will remember that Paul and Roy came here some weeks ago with both an original unit and a work in progress unit which was undoubtedly much better than the original. We all agreed there was scope for more improvement.
If we work on the basis of 100% of the original problem, then the prototype unit brought here o the first visit here was somewhere around 66% better. Today, with the very latest specification, I would put the figure at somewhere in the 90s. So almost all of the lost ground has been made up.
Its not perfect -- for that to be the case, then there would be zero insertion loss and you wouldnt be able to tell whether the unit was on or off. Today, however, all the harshness and closed-in-ness has gone. The only criticism we heard was a slight "smallness" to the system sound, and both Paul and I agreed as to its existence and magnitude. So work will continue at HQ as part of the ongoing R&D which naim has always applied to all products.
Does this mean that Naim is changing the hardware of the production units still? I thought that even small changes in hardware designed causes a lot of problems with EEC and probably also FCC and other regulations?
The harshness you talk about as now gone, is it on the HdX or injected to the rest of the system?
How do you rate this unit in terms of sound quality compared to the Naim cd range?
Claus
Clearly Naim has done a lot of work on this issue, and it has reaped substantial rewards for doing so. With the (small) rider of the (small) residual effect on the latest spec unit, I'm happy that we are agreed that the justifications for the original criticism have now been fixed in production.
On my system at least, this is a MUCH better product than before.
Thanks to paul for taking the time to drive all the way up here to validate the work on my system.
Posted on: 13 October 2008 by js
What's interesting is that you can hear virtually anything added to a system if it's revealing enough. If the overall result is better than it's all good. From experience, switching power supplies are big offenders and many of the products favored by some in this forum use them. It's one of the limitations of my favored PC/TC combo along with the generally noisey evironment of any computer. It goes beyond having enough power supply.quote:Originally posted by Claus-thoeg:quote:Originally posted by jon honeyball:
i have just had paul stephenson here with the very latest (a few days old?) spec hdx -- a lidless unit which Roy has been working on to reduce/remove the issues I identified on my system, Martin Colloms heard on his, and which subsequently were identified and agreed by the factory.
The problem was the "system injection" issue of the HDX, whereby merely having it switched on caused a somewhat catastrophic collapse in the sound quality of the whole system, irrespective of input.
You will remember that Paul and Roy came here some weeks ago with both an original unit and a work in progress unit which was undoubtedly much better than the original. We all agreed there was scope for more improvement.
If we work on the basis of 100% of the original problem, then the prototype unit brought here o the first visit here was somewhere around 66% better. Today, with the very latest specification, I would put the figure at somewhere in the 90s. So almost all of the lost ground has been made up.
Its not perfect -- for that to be the case, then there would be zero insertion loss and you wouldnt be able to tell whether the unit was on or off. Today, however, all the harshness and closed-in-ness has gone. The only criticism we heard was a slight "smallness" to the system sound, and both Paul and I agreed as to its existence and magnitude. So work will continue at HQ as part of the ongoing R&D which naim has always applied to all products.
Does this mean that Naim is changing the hardware of the production units still? I thought that even small changes in hardware designed causes a lot of problems with EEC and probably also FCC and other regulations?
The harshness you talk about as now gone, is it on the HdX or injected to the rest of the system?
How do you rate this unit in terms of sound quality compared to the Naim cd range?
Claus
Clearly Naim has done a lot of work on this issue, and it has reaped substantial rewards for doing so. With the (small) rider of the (small) residual effect on the latest spec unit, I'm happy that we are agreed that the justifications for the original criticism have now been fixed in production.
On my system at least, this is a MUCH better product than before.
Thanks to paul for taking the time to drive all the way up here to validate the work on my system.
Sometimes the fix can do as much harm as the original problem and it takes well executed solutions to get the proper result. Many of us have heard the negative effects of mains filtering and grounding caused by additional components. Almost any component with a filter as part of the mains connector will have an effect. I remember that very early Armageddons and Lingos did the same. Don't know about current Lingos but Armageddons have been very transperant for quite some time.
Posted on: 13 October 2008 by james n
Just out of interest - what mods are being done to it - why does this unit have such and effect and the NS units (though perhaps not reported) dont seem to ?
James
James
Posted on: 13 October 2008 by jon h
quote:Originally posted by Claus-thoeg:
Does this mean that Naim is changing the hardware of the production units still? I thought that even small changes in hardware designed causes a lot of problems with EEC and probably also FCC and other regulations?
The harshness you talk about as now gone, is it on the HdX or injected to the rest of the system?
How do you rate this unit in terms of sound quality compared to the Naim cd range?
Claus
Naim equipment is always undergoing small changes throughout the life of a product -- components might become unavailable and need to be swapped with something else at least as good. And so on.
The filtering mods are, I understand it, to do with additional ferrite filters on the mains cable within the casework. The precise choice, size and location of this/these has been critical to the adjustment. I believe it is the intention that this can be retrofitted in by the dealer or Naim rep, without requiring a shipping back to a service center.
However, and this is an important point, if an existing customer cannot hear any issue *in their system*, then there is no point having the filtering fitted. Indeed, it might make things worse. Or different. Or more purple (TM dilbert). However, in *my* system (and systems put together at the factory to check this) the addition has proved to be very worthwhile. You mileage will vary, though.
The original unit harshness was immediately obvious on my system irrespective of source used. At this point, there was only mains connection to the HDX, no snaic.
Regarding EEC and FCC etc -- the original production units have sailed past all the relevant specifications. The factory cannot even reliably measure this insertion effect, it is so left-field. Impossible to measure, very audible in some systems (including mine). The worst possible sort of problem to solve, other than one which is intermittent as well!
Rating the unit compared to other naim units -- sorry, I cannot help you there. I have had extensive exposure to the original production item, which had the big problems as discussed, so it wasnt possible to know what it was really doing. I have had such small exposure to this new revision that I cannot say what it sounds like -- we were concentrating on power on/off testing listening to my CDS1 (on this visit, other CD and LP12 on previous visit).
We did listen to some Naim label jazz material in hidef from the HDX which paul had on a usb stick. It was tuneful, interesting and musical. Nuff said.
Paul couldnt leave me the unit for further listening - firstly it had no lid and thus was electrically very unsafe, secondly it is Roy's development machine. And there would have been no point - Paul has kindly taken most of my system back to the factory in his car for refurb (6x135, 52, 52PS, Supercap etc). These will come back via my dealer in the usual way in a few weeks. Hopefully at that point, the factory will have another unit for me to try, complete with the result of some ongoing discussions on the software and OS front.
Posted on: 13 October 2008 by nocker
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jon honeyball:
The problem was the "system injection" issue of the HDX, whereby merely having it switched on caused a somewhat catastrophic collapse in the sound quality of the whole system, irrespective of input.
Jon, what do you mean by this please?
The problem was the "system injection" issue of the HDX, whereby merely having it switched on caused a somewhat catastrophic collapse in the sound quality of the whole system, irrespective of input.
Jon, what do you mean by this please?
Posted on: 13 October 2008 by js
quote:Originally posted by Claus-thoeg:
Does this mean that Naim is changing the hardware of ......
I believe everything is now shipping this way and my demo plus the units we've sold have the described retrofit. The change is significant enough that you don't need an A/B and the unit itself appears to have also been improved with the update. It is more competitive with Naim's top CD players then before when both were powered up in the same system. As you heard, 24 bit is another story. I had the same issues as you did with an early example that I listened to while not fully warm but am very impressed with the current unit. I get a sense that adding a outboard supply has even greater benefit now while at the same time not being as important. I suspect that you'll be even more impressed with the HDX itself after you have an updated unit with a week or 2 on it.
Posted on: 13 October 2008 by Cymbiosis
quote:Originally posted by jon honeyball:
Paul couldnt leave me the unit for further listening - firstly it had no lid and thus was electrically very unsafe, secondly it is Roy's development machine. And there would have been no point - Paul has kindly taken most of my system back to the factory in his car for refurb (6x135, 52, 52PS, Supercap etc). These will come back via my dealer in the usual way in a few weeks. Hopefully at that point, the factory will have another unit for me to try.
Let's hope so Jon.
In the mean time, an observation of sorts which may well and hopefully will be relevant here:
IMHO electronics seem to sound better when their lids are on, so there may be more to come straight away as a result of this!
KR
Peter
Posted on: 13 October 2008 by jon h
quote:I believe everything is now shipping this way and my demo plus the units we've sold have the described retrofit.
The factory would have to confirm -- but I believe what I heard today has been in production for only a few days.
quote:IMHO electronics seem to sound better when their lids are on, so there may be more to come straight away as a result of this!
And the usual few days of warm-up too. Today wasnt ideal, but it was the best that could be done. HQ wanted that sanity check of trying it in my system, and if it managed to be this improved in an un-ideal configuration, then adding lid, warm-up time etc can only help.
Oh, and before anyone gets stompy feet... do *not* try running your naim equipment with the lid removed, unless you want to put yourself forward for a Darwin Award. (http://www.darwinawards.com/)
Posted on: 13 October 2008 by Adam Meredith
What are the "system injection" effects of using a computer and external DAC with your system?
Posted on: 13 October 2008 by jon h
Almost nonexistent. Not surprising, because the fully charged battery in a laptop acts as an online (ie inline) UPS, and the mains charger is only trickle charging the laptop at a power consumption of under 15W typically -- much less than HDX takes.
I could haul a MacPro or quad-core desktop PC into the listening room to try that. But the noise level would be ruinous before I even got to start playing some music.
I could haul a MacPro or quad-core desktop PC into the listening room to try that. But the noise level would be ruinous before I even got to start playing some music.
Posted on: 13 October 2008 by Adam Meredith
quote:Originally posted by jon honeyball:
the fully charged battery in a laptop acts as an ...
I was asking about computer and external DAC - have you tried this?
Posted on: 13 October 2008 by jon h
No, for the reasons I gave - I cannot see any point in putting a device not designed for acoustic quietness into my listening room.
I have tried other devices on the same ring in the same room -- wifi bases, sonicwall firewall, Cisco routers, fax machine, Tek scope, and a plethora of test equipment (HP/Agilent 8903, for example) with no problems.
For dacs, I have tried focusrite x 2, MOTU Ultralite, Apogee, and the SaDIE editing suite (which is laptop based but uses a pile of external USB-connected mains powered hard discs).
For recorders, I have tried the Edirol R4, and a mix of various Nagra.
I have tried other devices on the same ring in the same room -- wifi bases, sonicwall firewall, Cisco routers, fax machine, Tek scope, and a plethora of test equipment (HP/Agilent 8903, for example) with no problems.
For dacs, I have tried focusrite x 2, MOTU Ultralite, Apogee, and the SaDIE editing suite (which is laptop based but uses a pile of external USB-connected mains powered hard discs).
For recorders, I have tried the Edirol R4, and a mix of various Nagra.
Posted on: 13 October 2008 by js
quote:Originally posted by jon honeyball:
[QUOTE]I believe everything is now shipping this way and my demo plus the units we've sold have the described retrofit.
The factory would have to confirm -- but I believe what I heard today has been in production for only a few days.
[QUOTE]\QUOTE]
I know that the units I've sold and my Demo have had an update like the one you described. Started about 2 weeks ago when we got the demo that was retrofitted the day before we received it. Perhaps Naim USA sourced their own parts locally with instruction from Naim UK. DD would know the details. I personally know that ours have had the bit added as you describe. My earlier comments in another thread on Roy's ability to extract a product's potential was related to this improvemnet but also a generality. Maybe he's done more since then but what you described is in my unit. I suspect Naim may have held up production while waiting for parts in normal production and could explain the lag as opposed to a retrofit.
Posted on: 13 October 2008 by David Dever
Yes–same parts, same manufacturer, local supplier–dD
Posted on: 14 October 2008 by jon h
quote:Originally posted by js:
Maybe he's done more since then but what you described is in my unit.
I dont want us to get bogged down in micro-versionitis of something which might be, for example, the precise orientation and cabling of the self-same filter ring.
Posted on: 14 October 2008 by David Dever
Yes–also important.