Is anyone using an ARO with a Denon DL103?

Posted by: kuma on 11 December 2008

I know aht does. Smile
Anyone else with a good success?

The consensus is that it needs a high-mass arm to sing but I got curious to see how it works on the ARO.
I managed to mount on the DL103 and sure looks the business.
Posted on: 11 December 2008 by aht
But, just so others know, I've got a Zu Audio 103(R), a modified version with a higher mass, aluminum body; it interacts differently with modern arms than the original 103.
Posted on: 12 December 2008 by kuma
arthur,

That's right.
What are the SuperLine plugs you are using with the Denon?

I can't even begin to guess what value I should try on this.
Posted on: 12 December 2008 by aht
Currently I'm using 500R and 5.6nF, and it sounds pretty good, but there may be something better. But in any case, my 103R is electrically different from your 103 (16 ohm internal impedance vs. 40).

Gee, kuma, you stay up pretty late...
Posted on: 12 December 2008 by fatcat
Kuma

I notice you have mounted it with socket head screws. Don’t tighten them with an allen key. Denon recommend they should be “finger tight”
Posted on: 12 December 2008 by Markymark
Is that cos the body is made of cheese?
Posted on: 12 December 2008 by kuma
I will soon find out if it's a limberger on an ARO or not. Smile

Arthur,

Thanks. I'll try your setting when I try the 103R.
Probably I'm gonna start with the same loading as the Miyabi which is at 200R/No cap. and see what happens.

fatcat,

Howelse,without head screws, do you mount the cartridge on a headshell?
Posted on: 12 December 2008 by fatcat
quote:
Originally posted by kuma:
fatcat,

Howelse,without head screws, do you mount the cartridge on a headshell?


Quote.
I notice you have mounted it with socket head screws. Don’t tighten them with an allen key. Denon recommend they should be “finger tight”
Unquote

This doesn’t actually suggest mounting the cartridge without “head screws”

It suggests you shouldn’t tighten the socket head screws with an allen key. It suggests tightening the screws FINGER tight, with your FINGERS.

Denon recommend they should be “FINGER TIGHT”

If possible use the securing equipment supplied with the cartridge. IE. The screws and the round knurled nuts.
Posted on: 12 December 2008 by fatcat
quote:
Originally posted by kuma:
What are the SuperLine plugs you are using with the Denon?

I can't even begin to guess what value I should try on this.


The DL103 instruction manual states recommended load resistance should be 100 Ohms or greater.

I take it you don’t have an instruction manual. If your lucky you may find a copy on tinterweb.
Posted on: 12 December 2008 by Dev B
Hi Kuma, how do you find tracking and end of side distortion? I have this feeling you and I (although we don't know it have similar tastes tonal balance wise). You should also hear a Ortofon SPU Royal N (this is a very groovy cartridge, quite bassy and not to bright when set up well -- opposite of 17D2 for example)

I am looking around for my next cartridge as it happens, slightly confused about what to try so following your moves with interest.

regards

Dev
Posted on: 12 December 2008 by kuma
quote:
Originally posted by fatcat:
This doesn’t actually suggest mounting the cartridge without “head screws”

Ah. ok fatcat.

I've seen someone actually superglued the cartridge to a headshell with a spacer/weight on some headshell. :x

quote:
It suggests you shouldn’t tighten the socket head screws with an allen key. It suggests tightening the screws FINGER tight, with your FINGERS.

Got it.
It's not Linn tight, for sure.

quote:
If possible use the securing equipment supplied with the cartridge. IE. The screws and the round knurled nuts.

I couldn't use the mounting bolts that came with the cartridge. So, I used the longest one I could find in a drawer.

quote:
The DL103 instruction manual states recommended load resistance should be 100 Ohms or greater.

Yep. I got both instructions on the cartridges in Japanese complete with frequency response graphs. ( it is different between the standard 103 and R version ) I am not quite certain how that translate to the SuperLine loading setting. It seems probably *S* loading should work is my guess.
Which phono are you using?
Posted on: 12 December 2008 by kuma
Dev,

Altho, tonally a 17D is somewhat lean, I didn't mind it at all since it wasn't bright. I even love the older 19A.

From reading various posts elsewhere, I got the feeling the Denon is opposite of OC9/Lyra and somewhat it's like a poorman's Miyabi.

I haven't installed the arm top yet and will report back regarding the inner track distortion. I really haven't experienced it with an ARO with any cartridges so far except when the Miyabi/47 was knackered.

Arthur already is using his Zu 103R and reports that it is not bad but slower than his Dynavector which not surprising considering the cost difference.

I don't expect it to better the Miyabi or Akiva but how close it could come is my question.
Posted on: 13 December 2008 by Jean-Marc
Hi,

I'm currently using a DL103R on my standard Aro, on a Thorens 124 (with anti-magnetic platter).

The DL103R goes directly into a Prefix S/Hicap.

For me it works quite well, the sound is full, organic and not bright at all. Prat is also quite OK, in my opinion (but I don't have any experiences with high-cost carts such as the Dyna or Lyra..).

I can indeed detect some end of side distorsion, but tracking is very good.

Overall, this cart makes music that I want to listen to, which is the most important thing.

Given the price, it is fantastic value and it can be either the end of story musically-speaking for most of us, or a stop gap for better but then big money should be spent!

I've seen elsewhere on the 'net that some have their DL103 retiped with eliptic needles by people like Van Der Hul, but I don't know if it's for the better of not.

Hope this helps
JM
Posted on: 13 December 2008 by fatcat
quote:
Originally posted by kuma:
It seems probably *S* loading should work is my guess.
Which phono are you using?


I prefer the K boards to the S boards, but in truth I couldn’t hear a lot of difference. It may be due to the fact the K boards are a later version.

With regard to inner track distortion. I have a handful of records that are unlistenable on the inner track. I have hundreds that play fine. It may not be perfect but as Jean-Marc stated, “this cart makes music”.
Posted on: 13 December 2008 by kuma
DL 103 in action


I spent almost a whole day with the DL 103 on the ARO going through dozen or so records. And there is no mistracking or inner groove distortion I can detect.

The set up was a breeze as usual but I had to lower the arm height to make the arm parallel and had to put back a lateral balance weight since the way arm leads ended up inside the ARO's headshell.

I started out with a recommended VTF of 2.5g.

The first impression from the Miyabi/47:
S-L-O-W. :x

Scaling back a VTF to 2.25g helped a lot but sharp initial attacks from the notes are MIA as if someone took a scissors and rounded them all off.

Now, onto the good news.
This is a warm ( albeit tonally leaner than the M/47 ), inviting and pleasant sounding cartridge.

There are good amount of resolution in the midrange and air around the instruments which can create somewhat atmospheric listening space.

I would venture to say this is a very classic vintage vinyl sound.

Tonally, it is slightly leaner than the Miyabi/47 but overall balance is still on a warmish side.

This is a cartridge that can't sound bright. I've played some less than optimal records and nothing sounded offensive or rude. Very polite.

The trebles are always smooth and never sounding harsh, very easy on ears. You can listen to this all day long.

On a classic jazz music, it is excellent on sax, or horn instruments in general, giving them a plenty of breathing space and immediacy.

It can do a decent piano albeit notes are strung together and percussive attacks are greatly muted relative to Miyabi or Akiva.

A Superline is a better match than a Phonocube giving the cartridge a better dynamic contrast and jump.

Its midrange resolution is impressive for the price. It has a decent inner details and gives voices a natural feel albeit not as realistic and tactile as Miyabi/47. ( not many cartridges do, tho )

It perhaps shows its NHK broadcast standard heritage. It does nothing bad and I hear no glaring oddity in frequency transition. It's a very even-keeled steady cartridge.

And it does track pretty good without any distortion. I am curious which records fatcat and jean-marc tried that it did not track.

I've tried both approx. S and K setting on the Superline.

Either setting work well but the nominal K setting ( 590R/no caps ) I use for the Akiva had an edge over S ( 500R/5.6 nF ) in terms of transients and that the bass delivery is cleaner over all giving the cartridge much needed kick.

An S setting provided a nice immediate midrange.

I used a 47Lab's Phonocube also, but the SuperLine with either S or K loading worked much better with the cartridge.

In a graphic term, if the Miaybi is a bright primary colour, the DL 103 has more of a pastel colour spectrum.

It's not nearly funky and groovy enough for my dance & R&B records because the funky bassline is MIA. ( it's too rounded off )

I don't think it competes with today's modern cartridge for digging the last bits of information off records in frequency extremes. Yet its very easy-going disposition
makes the DL103 the oldest cartridge in production today.

As JM mentioned earlier, for its price, it makes a hard argument spending more on a cartridge, but it will not satisfy speed freaks.

Now onto the 103R next to see what changed from the original 103. According to the frequency charts, there is a slight lift in trebles. Interesting!
Posted on: 14 December 2008 by fatcat
quote:
Originally posted by kuma:


quote:
And it does track pretty good without any distortion. I am curious which records fatcat and jean-marc tried that it did not track.

Tanita Tikaram’s Ancient Heart springs to mind.


quote:
I would venture to say this is a very classic vintage vinyl sound.


A very good description
I suspect it appeals to people who think, as I do, that the 32.5/hicap/250 is the classic Naim sound.

I’m surprised you find it unfunky. In my system it sounds funky, although my system doesn’t have the bass extension or resolution of yours. Perhaps a few weeks burn in would improve things.
Posted on: 15 December 2008 by kuma

Is this it?
quote:
I’m surprised you find it unfunky. In my system it sounds funky, although my system doesn’t have the bass extension or resolution of yours.

It's just so slow next to the Miyabi/47. For the funky stuff, I even found that the AT 95E with a Shibata Stylus is a lot more upbeat than the DL103. Playing A Taste of Honey's Boogie Oogie Oogie, the slapping bass line just isn't there. ( I'm sure the cartridge wasn't developed for playing disco )

Today, my house guest wanted to hear the V1 and VR with the cartridge. We found that they also are excellent match ( loading at 100 ohms ) with the DL103 bringing out the cartridge's spacious feel even more and the Vinyl Reference was just a hoot! ( big, meaty and lush ) Albeit it doesn't help speeding up things but my friend had a good time with it playing many orchestral scores and old jazz reissues.
Posted on: 15 December 2008 by musfed
Kuma,

Excellent review. One question though. Is the dl103 you are using a new one or does it have a few hours of playing in it's sleeve.
I am asking this because with my new dl103 I noticed it loosened up after a while. At first it sounded "shut in" and I was wondering what the fuss was about with this cartridge. But then it got going (did not keep up how many records I played unfortunately) and I am happy with it.
Posted on: 15 December 2008 by kuma
musfed,

The DL103 has about 100 hrs. says the seller. ( I'd double that since it's a second hand ).

It doesn't sound *shut in* to me. In fact, the midrange is pretty open.

The DL103R has about 30 hrs. ( double that since this is also a second hand ).
Posted on: 15 December 2008 by fatcat
quote:
Originally posted by kuma:

Is this it?

Yes

I can hear a slight sibilance on the entire album, but on the final track of side one, sibilance is heard on almost every word.

When you get round to trying the 103R will you let us know how it compares to the standard 103, as well as how it compares to the Miyabi
Posted on: 15 December 2008 by kuma
fatcat,

Have you tried the same record with a different cartridge?

It could be the record or loading on a phono?

A K loading *can* sound bright on some recordings but not all.

I am still not having any tracking issues yet.

I'll try a Linto with the DL 103 and move onto the 103R next.
Posted on: 16 December 2008 by kuma
Linto ( with correctly terminated Tibia Roll Eyes ) and DL103.

How bizarre. I wasn't expecting much out of this phono with the DL 103 because of its higher than normal recommended loading, but this combination is grooving along rather nicely.

And it seems, it extracted much larger enveloping soundstage and the mdirange details are further brought out of this cartridge. ( a different EQ effect from others it seems )

Excellent with vocals, too and no excessive sibilance or I still haven't had any tracking problems with this cartridge.

It still does not make the DL103 a speed champ and still not funky enough, but it's *pleasantly boppy*. ( perfect after a day from hell )

I am pleasantly surprised, too that the Linto works well with this cartridge as so far I haven't had much luck with other non-Linn cartridges.

Now I am curious to see what PowerLine does to the Linto. :x
Posted on: 20 December 2008 by kuma
DL103R + ARO
AFIK, the only difference to this cartridge from the original is the use of 6N copper coils, but as mentioned by Arthur, its impedance is lower than the 103. ( 14 ohms opposed to 103's 40 ohms )

The last phono stage I used was a Linto, so, I am starting with the same phono with the 103R.
It also has a fewer hours ( according to the seller approx 30 hrs.) on it.
Right off the bat, the output seems to be a tad less so I have to turn up a volume a bit on a 52.

I kept the same VTF ( 2.25g ) and used the same ARO wand.

My first impression is not good. Overall, it's darker and slower than the 103. More weight on the bass, perhaps, but it's not sounding like anything yet.
The trebles seem to be opaque and out of place.
Midrange? With an hourglass frequency shaping, I can't hear into the music yet.

Will see what happens when this cartridge has more hours on it. It's possible that the change in the impedance no longer works well with the Linto.

I was expecting something quicker than the 103, so let's see if this is going to be any better.
Posted on: 23 December 2008 by kuma
After a few more hours under its belt with a Linto, the cartridge has opened up significantly.

But it was still sounding slower than the 103. The bass became firmer yet the whole proceeding was lackluster, so I've ditched the Lingo and put the Superline back in. ( figure nothing else I can play around with loading options )

I started off with the K-loading ( 590R/No cap ) This was my preferred loading for the original 103.

Right out from cold, my god, the music just jumped out of speakers! Clarity and presence were almost felt rather than heard and wow! it is blazing fast compared to the Linto driving the 103R.

Encouraged, I threw in some dance/disco records which a Linto/103R could not manage. With the 103, a K-loading can sound a tad lean but with the 103R, it struck a very nice balance, controlling the low end whilst maintaining civilised trebles. Somehow, the Superline was able to extract more details out of the cartridge. But the midrange was too recessed.

Then I went back to the S-loading (500R/5.6nF ) which aht uses for his Zu 103R.
Indeed this loading on this cartridge is quite nice. It brought out the bass weight without losing much dynamics and linearity. The bass line is still inteligeable but now the midrange has a sronger presence.
New reissues of Sinatra or Natalie Cole are just lovely on the S-loading.

It however, somewhat muddled with dance numbers. The midbass has too much *fat* in it.
It is workable in most recordings, however.

I also tried other cap plugs whilst 500R was in. The recommended 5.6nF was the best out except no caps *can* work on a very very bright or badly processed recordings since this loading mutes percussive attack and trebles. :x

Very briefly I tried a 220R/no cap loading.

It was backward move in terms of speed and put it into the Linto territory again. No go.

I usually try to average the loading with a given cartridge, but with the 103R, it is worth it to bother with changing loading depending on the program or recording quality. My library varies a lot. Some turkeys. Some great ones.

So, certainly the variable loading feature in SuperLine came in handy with the 103R.

Just for the grins, I have tried the Stageline K/HC.
A K-loaded Superline is vastly superior, as it should.

A better phonostage can help a rather ordinary cartridge.

A 103R seems to go down lower than the 103 but without a dead on loading, I don't know if it's worth the list price.

With a less costlier 103/Linto combination, I was always aware of its slow-ish timing but the music grooved along rather nice. In fact, I didn't mind it at all. It wasn't as veiled as with the 103R with the Linto.

It might be the sample variance, too.
I wasn't expecting this much change in suitable loading between the 103 and 103R.

I was lucky enough to purchase a low hour 103R at reasonable price and that the Superline works reasonably well with it, albeit it requires change in loading, so it's a pretty good VFM.

The stock 103/Linto is nice as well but some reason not as good with the Superline. I didn't think it locked as good as the 103R.

They are both moving coils so inner detail retrieval is excellent but It's still wanting due to lesser dynamics over all. They don't sound as animated and alive as the Miyabi/47.
The Denons can't produce a precise stops and starts of a note. They are more of flowing type of music making which can be lovely.

Also, I've no issues with their tracking so far, still.
Posted on: 25 December 2008 by kuma
I'm home~!

Going back to the Miyabi/47:
The very first thing it struck me was the huge amount of texture, vivid tonal colour and rhythmic precision.

The Miyabi knows where to start and stop a note like a clock work. And a whole lot more insights emerges from the same programs I've played with the Denons.

I sort of knew that Denons were in trouble when I preferred a Powerlined Krell CD player. :x

They are pleasant enough cartridges, but in the end, they don't keep enough timing and tension that exists amongst the musicians. Comparatively, they sound as if they are playing loose opposed to an individual player performing tight together.

I also briefly compared the 103R with a Dynavector's 19A mk. II. ( this is a predecessor to the 17D series, IIRC )
This had a darker and weightier presentation than the 103R but it was a painful reminder of how the top and bottom on the Denons are severely rolled off.
Better inner details and microdynamics, too.