Why hard disc?

Ultimately much is just personal preference, but for starters ...

Don't have to get out of armchair to change disk.
Don't have to put up with CD cases littering the floor because I'm too lazy to file them properly.
Less wear and tear on CDs.
Automatically create mp3 libraries for ipods etc (from a lossless flac master).
Ability to backup.
Ability to stream to multiple rooms/locations.
Ability to automatically play random albums (depending on your player)

Yes there is a one-off time to rip the collection, but it is a fairly automatic process taking about 3 mins per disk. Just keep feeding them into the PC (or HDX)

It isnt a massive advantage, it is just different.

You forgot to mention the massive increase in the quality of the music


And the fact that this massive increase in quality is achieved at a fraction of the price of a cd player struggling to attain the same loft heights.

quote:

Originally posted by thesherrif:
You forgot to mention the massive increase in the quality of the music


And the fact that this massive increase in quality is achieved at a fraction of the price of a cd player struggling to attain the same loft heights.

I didnt mention it because I am not convinced that is true! Agree price/performance trade off is better but I wouldn't describe as massive, eg CDX2/XPS vs HDX

Interesting question ( to me anyway).

I'm no expert but I have been thinking about this as well, and a possible explanation (for the high sound quality of some hard disk based systems) may be found at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripping#Obtaining_an_accurate_rip



Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Trotz:
Interesting question ( to me anyway).

I'm no expert but I have been thinking about this as well, and a possible explanation (for the high sound quality of some hard disk based systems) may be found at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripping#Obtaining_an_accurate_rip



Michael

That is all fine and true, but it doesnt account for a massive quality difference. A good CD player has a reasonable chance of extracting bit-perfect information for the vast majority of the time (unless the disk is damaged). Accurate ripping simply gets you to the same position. Hence a good CDP is as good as a good disk system.

The price difference comes from the fact that you dont need a high quality transport mechanism to achieve this result in a hard disk based system.

On perfect or near perfect disks a good transport should be able to extract bit perfect data to present to the DAC. There's reasonably strong error detection/correction as part of the standards. On less than perfect disks the multi-pass approach taken by good quality rippers gives a better chance of extracting all that is possible. I use dBpoweramp by the way ripping to FLAC.

Once you have a perfect copy, the convenience of the medium is what wins for me. I use a Slim Devices Transporter which uses the freeware SqueezeCentre media server. With this I can sit in my listening room with a laptop and access a rich browser interface - I can see album art, build playlists, select tracks, and generally manage my music in a way that would be impossible with a rack of CD's.

A final benefit for me is a better relationship with my wife who has the annoying habit of putting CDs back in the wrong cases! Having wasted hours searching for where she 'hid' the CD I needed, and the inevitable 'discussion' that follows, this is a great aid to domestic harmony...

Peter,

There are discs in your collection which you may have forgotten. A random song mix will delight and surprise you by by playing songs from those forgotten disks. You may create play lists of "Late Night Jazz" or whatever. You may be pleased that you do not have to listen to entire disks from start to finish.

Software available now will allow you to pick a song (or songs) and play other songs from your collection which are "similar." Or you may discover new music which is "similar" which you can then buy. (This is how I discouvered Brad Mehldau, for example). New software written in the not-too-distant future will go further, and likely be easier to use.

And thesherrif is right. Unless you own a 555, you are not even close to hearing what is on those silver disks. If you are a computer geek, you can assemble a server system yourself. Or Naim have done a fine job of it for you with very nice interface (by most reports) for a bit more money.


Cheers,


Charlie

This may sound silly but a possible downside for me is the joy (for me) of seeking out a CD, put it on, and stare are box and liner notes while it's playing.

Convenience on the other hand is a strong plus. But sound quality is what decides for me at the end of the day.

If the perceived superior sound quality is as obvious and 'easy' as projected by some the market would be crawling with great sounding hard disk players already (as in better than equally priced CD spinners). I have yet to hear the first. And I hope the HDX will be that one...

Richard.

The market IS crawling with great sounding hard disc players !

They're called laptops, and macs.

These beauties output their lovely bits to DACs, and the market is crawling with those as well.

Of course if you want it all in one box........... but why would you? You can futureproof yourself by sticking to separate boxes whilst the industry sorts itself out during this sea change that is going on. But the quality is already there, no doubt about it. Cd players are doomed; as will hard discs become one day when they are replaced by chips the size of your thumb that will hold every song ever recorded, every film ever made, and every book ever written.

Thanks for the responses everyone. I guess a lot depends on how you like to listen to music. I can see advantages in being able to select tracks from different albums easily. I rarely listen to a whole CD from start to finish. I usually listen to one or two tracks from one disc then move on to something else. On the other hand, as Richard says, I like the feeling of picking out a CD and then looking through the booklet as it plays. In the same way as I prefer the feeling of sitting in a comfortable chair reading a book rather than reading text from a computer monitor. Viewing artwork and sleeve notes on a laptop just wouldn't be the same for me. Do people think that hard disc is the future of hi-fi, or is it merely a transitional stage before something else takes over(eg. solid state memory)? Or will it exist alongside CD as "niche" format, similar to SACD or DVD-Audio? I am no computer expert at all, but my feeling is that with the very rapid, almost exponential development of computer based technology, any new music format based on such technology is almost by definition likely to be short-lived. I therefore question the wisdom of investing in it (not that I'm in a postion to anyway!). It was a few years after the relaese of CD that I took the plunge, replaced my vinyl with CD's and sold my LP12. Linn's continued dogma that CD was incapable of competing with LP on musical terms simply became irrelevant. LP releases were starting to dry up rapidly, so it was a case of having to embrace the new format, like it or not. The same scenario with CD / hard disc does not seem to be apparent as yet. So there is no pressing need to change to hard disc regarding softeware availability. I guess time will tell with all this. And of cause, in these more modern times, things do have a habit of changing rather suddenly and rapidly.

Regards,

Peter

Another advantage of the Laptop/Macbook->DAC approach is the ability to carry your entire music collection with you wherever you go and, in the case of the DAC I use (and likely others as well) listen using headphones.


Michael

That's the beauty of hard disc based systems...... it ISN'T a format ! Think "storage system"....... think "DAC"...... and that's it !

If solid state memory replaces HDD.... so what? nothing changes. If DACs improve then great, still nothing changes.

Your investment isn't a sunk cost.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by thesherrif:
The market IS crawling with great sounding hard disc players !

They're called laptops, and macs.

These beauties output their lovely bits to DACs, and the market is crawling with those as well.

But are they really better. After I heard the Linn DS I am convinced that more data in a good setup may be extracted, but this has in Linns case been totally defeated by the most dull and lifeless sound I have heard in a long time. Will the loved macs and dacs be better, maybe I have not heard the serious contenders, but I am sceptical after having heard how these system can ruine sound quality!

does this mean that all the new systems have the same sound, probably not but as always do not take others word for it, listen yourself!

Very true! I had LP12 for 20 years and it was a sad day when I sold but in the end it came down to convenience. The same caused me to sell my CDS3. Life moves on!!

quote:

Originally posted by davea:
Yes there is a one-off time to rip the collection, but it is a fairly automatic process taking about 3 mins per disk. Just keep feeding them into the PC (or HDX)

This is really not much of a hassle as (using iTunes anyway)I can rip music from CDs while listening to an LP, the CD being ripped or an already ripped file or indeed while doing anything else that doesn't require my full-time attention.


Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Claus-thoeg:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by thesherrif:
The market IS crawling with great sounding hard disc players !

They're called laptops, and macs.

These beauties output their lovely bits to DACs, and the market is crawling with those as well.

But are they really better. After I heard the Linn DS I am convinced that more data in a good setup may be extracted, but this has in Linns case been totally defeated by the most dull and lifeless sound I have heard in a long time. Will the loved macs and dacs be better, maybe I have not heard the serious contenders, but I am sceptical after having heard how these system can ruine sound quality!

does this mean that all the new systems have the same sound, probably not but as always do not take others word for it, listen yourself!

Try one. What's to lose? If you find a DAC you like it can become:

- Your best digital source.
- Quality conversion for BBC iPlayer or similar, as well as radio.
- A great headphone amp.

Rumours of Naim producing one may prove premature as the on-board server option seems to be the way they wish to go.

Steve

There is much talk of Macbook/DAC systems providing an excellent source. It is my understanding that when Naim demonstrated this combination at a show (the DAC being in the Supernait) it was universally agreed that it was no match for a CDX2 etc. What does this mean? Is the DAC in the Supernait inferior to some stand-alone DAC's that people are using? Also a Mac is not a purpose-built music machine and so surely it would be hard pushed to compete with true high-end sources ie. CDX2, CDS3 etc?

quote:

Linn's continued dogma that CD was incapable of competing with LP on musical terms simply became irrelevant. LP releases were starting to dry up rapidly, so it was a case of having to embrace the new format, like it or not.

And now they're my primary source of 24bit/96kHz FLACs... time moves on.

quote:

Originally posted by pjl:
There is much talk of Macbook/DAC systems providing an excellent source. It is my understanding that when Naim demonstrated this combination at a show (the DAC being in the Supernait) it was universally agreed that it was no match for a CDX2 etc. What does this mean? Is the DAC in the Supernait inferior to some stand-alone DAC's that people are using? Also a Mac is not a purpose-built music machine and so surely it would be hard pushed to compete with true high-end sources ie. CDX2, CDS3 etc?

The Mac with a better DAC than the one contained in the SuperNait is required, if you are interested in what the Mac can do. The computer has to provide good digital output which is just what the latest Macs do. That is why you have heard so much about it lately.

Steve

If heard two of these 'famous' Mac-DAC combo's from more IT prone audiophiles. One in a Naim setup, the other was Ayre I kit believe. All sorts of things could - and probably were - wrong but they failed to impress musically.

As said, a MAC is... a (laptop) PC... and a good one. But not build for audio not as a dedicated ripping station. Maybe if the iPower audio grade power supply for the Mac arrives that will change.

Richard.

quote:

wrong but they failed to impress musically.

Nobody is suggesting you have to be.

An increasing amount of people certainly are though. Maybe you haven't heard the right combo for you. Power supplies for the Mac would be a waste of money though - a good lossless digital feed is all you need and they do that powered by a battery (not that I've heard any difference when plugged in). You don't need to add power supplies for it. They may (or may not) be beneficial elsewhere downstream of course. If you really are itching to buy them.

Steve

I was lucky enough to be given the chance to listen to a Macbook/Lavry D10 combo a week ago.

The cost including cables is in the region of 1500 GBP. I can think of no CD player from any company at this price that would come even close to the quality available. It would need to outperform the old CDS2 to do so based on this experience.

I ran a CDS2 for six years and at the time it was the best CD player made by Naim, and my choice in spite of its very considerable cost in 2000.

It may surprise some to read that one favourite recorded musical performance [the Hans Martin Linde recording of Bach's Brandenburgs], which was something regularly played on the CDS2, was even better replayed on the MAC/Lavry combination.

The only way to satisfy your quest for first quality, and best value, replay of digital encoded music, is to audition the various possibilities.

In the last two years I have auditioed CD555, CDS3, HDX, and Macbook/Lavry [among others], and found that the Lavry is very much at the CDS-series level of performance, and slightly better than the old CDS2. I shall not bore with second hand reports about its position in relation to the CDS3, or even CD555. Any replay that is on the level of, or finer than, the CDS2 is more than sufficient for me to forget the issue and simply enjoy the music, undisturbed by the replay.

MAC has a long term understanding of handling HD music recording storage, and it is not for nothing that EMI have used bespoke MAC computers for handling their remastering and restoration work on classical music masters since before 1994. I suspect that MAC really do understand how to make the fine detail of implementation that is the final link in music replay of the first quality. naim is known for this attention to detail as well ...

As for the Lavry, it is a gem, and the combination is such incredible value for money that it will inevitably be judged deficient for not costing enough by those who cannot undertand how a six or seven thousand pound CD player can be equalled ot ever outperformed by a set up that costs less than a quarter of the money.

ATB from George

My first reaction:


Posted Sat 16 August 2008 23:46

I had a wonderful afternoon at Steve S1's house today, listening to his set with the addition [for my own reference] of my own Royd Minstrel SE speakers in place of Steve's Arts.

This was to try out the MAC/Lavry D10 combination, as part of an ongoing search for a digital source with HD storage for my CDs, and, at that, one I could afford.

We soon put two CD recordings of Bach's Brandenburg Concertos [HM Linde's EMI/Virgin set in a very early 1980s digtital, which is rather difficult to replay, and the venerable set from Mogens Woldike recorded by the Danish branch of HMV between 1950 and 1954, in very lucidly and musically balanced direct cut 78s and early LP tapings] onto the MAC, which was able to secure the tagging details for library purposes, and access to tracks, and then we set about some listening!

First auditioned was the Linde performance of the First Concerto with grand and tangy valveless French Horns, and it was immediately obvious to me that this MAC/DAC combo is the business, and quite amazingly fine. Then came the Fourth Concerto from Woldike, recorded on 78s in 1950. The revelation is that though the recording was made using [by then rather antiquated] HMV direct cut to wax recording machines of the type introduced by AD Blumlein in 1932 [!], the actual recording was just as lucidly balanced, and the music making still compellingly presented even after listening to a modern recording.

I am not so very interested in comparative listening, but prefer to trust my own ears in the absolute rather than wasting time on A/B style listening. We did not do any listening in that fashion though we did return to both these Concerti later, in completely relaxed fashion - just listening to the music - with Steve's big and very efficient Art speakers. I think it is probabaly fair to say his Arts were more suited to his Berning integrated valve amp than my Minstrels, which have a rather modest figure for output per Watt at about 86 dB. The Arts are over 91, which is not to say that the Minstrels were not performing superbly, but that there was a lot more work for the amp to do to drive them. They match splendidly with my NAP 140, for example.

Onto how the music came out, and my goodness it did, and so listenably and engagingly. I am not sure I have ever heard better characterised instrumental timbres from replay. The sound-world is literally delicious. Tangy and bright, or sweetly gentle as is true. If this were at the expense musical expressive phrasing, touch and swing, of rhythmic drive, or of articulacy then it would be useless, but it is articulate to perfection! And has the most wonderful sense of the momentum and swing of the music coming through. It is like the best pieces from Naim, and to have a voicing with it that is so pure as to timbre is something very special. Its voicing is in the CDS-series bracket of quality in my view, and that suits me perfectly.

After that we listened to the Brahms Accademic Festival Overture from Bruno Walter, a recording that I had on LP, and early CD, and now again in the latest Sony release. It is the most lovely and good humoured music making from one of the greatest conductors of Brahms to have left records. The recording is well balanced, full-bodied, with a brilliance to the violins and percussion that would be startling for a modern recording, and almost incredible for one made almost fifty ears ago. I have to say that digital resoration has revealed what no LP issue of it ever did, and not even the early CD set I had: In its latest digital restoration it is a very good recording indeed, and the more compelling for containg such grand music making. By now I was convinced by the source. So much so that it ceased to be a discussion point at all.

Than a change of musical direction, with Steve making some choices including a lady singer with a simply incredible guitar player. Steve please help with who and what!

Then we broke for coffee, and sat in the garden in pleasantly warm rain-free conditions and had a proper chin wag. On returning we put back the Art speakers, and relistened to the Bach and the lady with guitar, and set of on some other lovely relaxing music from Nat King Cole, and to round off Sir Adrian Boult's 1954 Pye recording of Brahms Accademic Festival Overture, which does have a different feel to Bruno Walter's performance! Then we started off on the first movement of Brahms First Symphony from Boult. But time was flying, and it is a 170 mile drive...

So another coffeee, and Mozart's Clarinet Concerto through the window from Jack Brymer and Sir Thomas Beecham. Marvelous ending to such a nice afternoon.

Thanks to Steve and Mrs S1 for inviting me to their lovely home!

I used to run a CDS2 for six years. When I was given the chance to buy it by my late Norwegian grandmother, I said it was the first digital machine [I had not listened to music through the original, and by then replaced CDS] which was so fine as to make me forget the issue of digital as a phenomenon in musical replay. I am not sure that the MAC/Lavry is not even more musically pleasing and involving than my old CDS2. That is how fine I think it is.

Until people have heard this combo they need not judge by the generally rather awful [in my experience] results based on a Windows-based PC, with ot without outboard DAC. The effect of this combo is simple wonderful, and compelling for the musical reasons that please me.

I don't ask anyone to take my word for it, but rather audition for themselves. I am not interested in comparitive listening to components or even a hierachical ordering of them, according to price or anyone else's opinion of their quality, but only what I find, and what I found was remarkable. If curious, give this arrangement a listen.

Please don't ask me to rate it in terms of currently competing components, but I will say that its performance and quality are in the very top flight. Given any amount of money, not being one to waste it, this is the way I would go. But I can afford it over the coming months, and will place the order for the Lavry at least by the end of next week...

Nailing my colours to the mast. Exactly as I did with the CDS2 in 2000 or 2001.

George

Mac or PC - as long as they are setup for bit transparent output then there should be no difference (easier to achieve on a Mac).

Apple Macs have a well deserved reputation in the music industry more due to the software tools available rather than audio quality. I wouldn't compare them to Naim in that respect but maybe build quality (the inside of my Powermac is a work of art compared to a PC...)

James

The sonic effects of attention to elegant and effective soft-ware [a MAC area of excelence as much as the hardware] is not something lost on Naim in their CD players, which is why they write their own!

Microsoft software is written to accomodate a huge range of hardware, some very good and some not, and so is s generic solutioin, and a far from satisfactory solution in many ways. Theory tells one story and the ears may well tell that the theory is not quite right!

George

George,

Have ypu heard the Macbook/Supernait combination? I have not but from reports it would seem that it is inferior to a bare CDX2. If this is correct, I can only assume from your experiences that the Lavry DAC must be far superior to that contained in the Supernait. Or was it a different model of Macbook - how important is the model used?

Regards,

Peter