Beresford DAC - Grounding
Posted by: pcstockton on 24 July 2008
Some of you might recall some posts a few months back regarding using a Beresford as the sole source in Naim kit.
Since no other sources are used, and the Beresford does not correctly earth the kit, I was experiencing a high pitched "noise" when the one or more of the following conditions are met:
1) DAC is off
2) No signal going to the DAC
3) Selecting a different input on the DAC than what is connected.
Stanley, in his ultimate quest for perfect customer service, has been continuously working on this issue without my prodding.
When we last spoke, he thought the only solution would be to use a "regulate, linear power supply" of which I could not find any locally. I was hesitant to buy one online not knowing what return policies are, or if it would even work.
A few days back he gave me a suggestion which I did not try as it seemed a little unsafe or possibly detrimental to mains quality. He suggested attaching a ground wire from the B-ford case to the earth pin on the 180 mains lead.
I wasn't very comfortable doing this for unknown reasons.
He just emailed me and said a fellow Naimer is doing this to great effect. From Stanley Beresford's email:
"Get a cheap RCA audio cable from Radio Shack and cut one of the RCA plugs off. The strip back about 1 inch of the outer plastic sleeving. Cut off the inner plastic sleeving with the copper strands that are in the center of the cable. That leaves you with just the outer copper strands on one end. Twist the strands together and connect them to the earth tag of your amp. That's assuming you have an amp that also has a turntable input since only those types of amp have an earth tag these days. The other end of the cable you plug into one of the output sockets of the DAC."
I will try it tonight and report the results.
Since no other sources are used, and the Beresford does not correctly earth the kit, I was experiencing a high pitched "noise" when the one or more of the following conditions are met:
1) DAC is off
2) No signal going to the DAC
3) Selecting a different input on the DAC than what is connected.
Stanley, in his ultimate quest for perfect customer service, has been continuously working on this issue without my prodding.
When we last spoke, he thought the only solution would be to use a "regulate, linear power supply" of which I could not find any locally. I was hesitant to buy one online not knowing what return policies are, or if it would even work.
A few days back he gave me a suggestion which I did not try as it seemed a little unsafe or possibly detrimental to mains quality. He suggested attaching a ground wire from the B-ford case to the earth pin on the 180 mains lead.
I wasn't very comfortable doing this for unknown reasons.
He just emailed me and said a fellow Naimer is doing this to great effect. From Stanley Beresford's email:
"Get a cheap RCA audio cable from Radio Shack and cut one of the RCA plugs off. The strip back about 1 inch of the outer plastic sleeving. Cut off the inner plastic sleeving with the copper strands that are in the center of the cable. That leaves you with just the outer copper strands on one end. Twist the strands together and connect them to the earth tag of your amp. That's assuming you have an amp that also has a turntable input since only those types of amp have an earth tag these days. The other end of the cable you plug into one of the output sockets of the DAC."
I will try it tonight and report the results.
Posted on: 25 July 2008 by pcstockton
no dice.
Posted on: 25 July 2008 by garyi
Looking at your pictures in the pictures thread I would try unplugging the TV from the mains. I have precisely the same issue which I have learned to live with whereby the crap power pack in the tv dumps noise into the hifi depending on certain sources.
Posted on: 25 July 2008 by pcstockton
Garyi.
The TV nor anything in the HT kit is creating the noise.
When I first got my Naim kit, i was experiencing a little RFI, from some towers just up the hill from me.
I thought it was something else in my house creating the noise. So at one point I unplugged just about everything in the house, including the fridge. As well, I simply turned off ALL other circuits besides the one feeding my kit.
When the RFI noise failed to disappear, I packed up my entire kit and brought to my office, and to my friend's house on the way home.
The RFI disappeared at those two locations. But the DAC "noise" did not.
It is simply the nature of the B-fords grounding.
The "noise" ONLY occurs when not listening. So it isn't a big deal. But Stan wants to address it and is asking my help. He was unaware of his products popularity amongst Naim owners, and wants to ensure they are compatible.
The noise happens:
1) The DAC is off.
2) Input selected is not what is connected.
3) No signal going to DAC (computer off)
In all of the cases above, the 102 is muted, so I cannot hear the sound.
The noise is NOT very loud, and is volume dependent. But it is noticeable.
The first time I heard it was when I "rebooted" my computer and the toslink data was off for a minute. The sound appeared and then disappeard as soon as Windows was loaded.
Stan is intent on figuring this out. He thinks the wall wort is most likely the culprit.
We do know there is some issue with the earthing arrangement. When I used a "2 prong-to-3 prong" adapter at the end of the B-ford power supply, the loud buzz on startup of the Naim kit ceased.
The TV nor anything in the HT kit is creating the noise.
When I first got my Naim kit, i was experiencing a little RFI, from some towers just up the hill from me.
I thought it was something else in my house creating the noise. So at one point I unplugged just about everything in the house, including the fridge. As well, I simply turned off ALL other circuits besides the one feeding my kit.
When the RFI noise failed to disappear, I packed up my entire kit and brought to my office, and to my friend's house on the way home.
The RFI disappeared at those two locations. But the DAC "noise" did not.
It is simply the nature of the B-fords grounding.
The "noise" ONLY occurs when not listening. So it isn't a big deal. But Stan wants to address it and is asking my help. He was unaware of his products popularity amongst Naim owners, and wants to ensure they are compatible.
The noise happens:
1) The DAC is off.
2) Input selected is not what is connected.
3) No signal going to DAC (computer off)
In all of the cases above, the 102 is muted, so I cannot hear the sound.
The noise is NOT very loud, and is volume dependent. But it is noticeable.
The first time I heard it was when I "rebooted" my computer and the toslink data was off for a minute. The sound appeared and then disappeard as soon as Windows was loaded.
Stan is intent on figuring this out. He thinks the wall wort is most likely the culprit.
We do know there is some issue with the earthing arrangement. When I used a "2 prong-to-3 prong" adapter at the end of the B-ford power supply, the loud buzz on startup of the Naim kit ceased.
Posted on: 03 August 2008 by Vaughn3D
I've been considering a Beresford to improve on the sound of my recently purchased Panasonic Blu-Ray player. Should I be concerned about the 1V output?...are there any gain issues?
Posted on: 03 August 2008 by Exiled Highlander
Nope
Cheers
Jim
Cheers
Jim
Posted on: 11 August 2008 by User34
quote:Originally posted by Vaughn3D:
I've been considering a Beresford to improve on the sound of my recently purchased Panasonic Blu-Ray player. Should I be concerned about the 1V output?...are there any gain issues?
I just got one, using it with Airport Express. Sounds just fine into my system.
Posted on: 24 August 2008 by Major-Tom
HI Patrick. I inserted a Beresford into my system yesterday & absolutely no earthing isses arose. Aware of the possibility of the problem you are experiencing, I spoke to Stanley Beresford prior to purchase. Aparently Naim owners make up a large percentage of his customers, some have the earthing problem, others not. I'm a little confused by this, shouldn't we all have the earth problem or none of us ?
Posted on: 24 August 2008 by Adam Meredith
quote:Originally posted by Major-Tom:
...I'm a little confused by this, shouldn't we all have the earth problem or none of us ?
No - it may come down to what other units you have connected to the preamplifier.
For many long-term Naim users there will be a Naim CD player already in the system. In this unit a connection is made between signal earth and mains earth. If other "earth" potentials are introduced to the system hum may be produced by earth loops.
Posted on: 25 August 2008 by pcstockton
Tom,
As Adam alluded to, my B-ford is my only source, and therefore does not correctly earth the kit.
As Adam alluded to, my B-ford is my only source, and therefore does not correctly earth the kit.
Posted on: 25 August 2008 by CharlieP
I am using the Lavry (see my earlier posts), and do not have a grounding component. I never suffered from Hum, but noted a worthwhile improvement in sound by adding a ground wire from the ground lug on my 282 to the ground pin on a power plug (with no power connection) into my Wiremold power strip.
Charlie
Charlie
Posted on: 26 August 2008 by pcstockton
Charlie,
Stanley has suggested a few ways to attempt to ground the kit with his DAC as the only source. None that I attempted worked. The others seemed unsafe or possible unwise.
Until we started corresponding, he was unaware of Naim's earthing arrangement. Also, he did not know his DAC was popular among the Naim crowd.
Over the last 6 months he has been doing research to get to the bottom of this. He found a Naim owner who also had his DAC. They suggested running a wire from the 102s ground to an unused RCA input on the DAC. This did not work for me, although it did in the others.
It just occurred to me that I had removed the phono boards from my 102 and now wonder if this prevented the experiment from working.
He said a "regulated, linear, power supply might work, but I cannot find one for under $100.
Stanley has suggested a few ways to attempt to ground the kit with his DAC as the only source. None that I attempted worked. The others seemed unsafe or possible unwise.
Until we started corresponding, he was unaware of Naim's earthing arrangement. Also, he did not know his DAC was popular among the Naim crowd.
Over the last 6 months he has been doing research to get to the bottom of this. He found a Naim owner who also had his DAC. They suggested running a wire from the 102s ground to an unused RCA input on the DAC. This did not work for me, although it did in the others.
It just occurred to me that I had removed the phono boards from my 102 and now wonder if this prevented the experiment from working.
He said a "regulated, linear, power supply might work, but I cannot find one for under $100.
Posted on: 26 August 2008 by av in bc
this is beresford's return policy
send the item back to:
James Chan
TECHNOLINK ENTERPRISE CO.
7F,NO.69-7,SEC.2,CHUNG CHENG EAST ROAD
TAMSHUI,
TAIPEI,
TAIWAN
We shall test the DAC to confirm your claim that it is faulty and report back to you.
good luck with that.
send the item back to:
James Chan
TECHNOLINK ENTERPRISE CO.
7F,NO.69-7,SEC.2,CHUNG CHENG EAST ROAD
TAMSHUI,
TAIPEI,
TAIWAN
We shall test the DAC to confirm your claim that it is faulty and report back to you.
good luck with that.
Posted on: 26 August 2008 by CharlieP
pc stockton,
Grounding your NAC102 may be a good question to ask of the Naim factory. Assuming that the ground terminal on the back of my 282 is signal ground (confirmed by an ohm-meter), I ran a ground wire to the ground pin on a power plug (purchased at Home Depot). The power and neutral remain unconnected. This I plugged into an unused outlet on my Wiremold power strip.
The system sounded subtly better, with quieter background, with ground wire in place. days later, it sounded subtly worse if I removed the ground wire, so it remains. I never did have hum problems.
Grounding your NAC102 may be a good question to ask of the Naim factory. Assuming that the ground terminal on the back of my 282 is signal ground (confirmed by an ohm-meter), I ran a ground wire to the ground pin on a power plug (purchased at Home Depot). The power and neutral remain unconnected. This I plugged into an unused outlet on my Wiremold power strip.
The system sounded subtly better, with quieter background, with ground wire in place. days later, it sounded subtly worse if I removed the ground wire, so it remains. I never did have hum problems.
Posted on: 26 August 2008 by Exiled Highlander
av in bc
Cheers
Jim
What's your point? Have you ever spoken to or done business with Stanley Beresford? I suspect not.quote:this is beresford's return policy
"edited for length"
We shall test the DAC to confirm your claim that it is faulty and report back to you.
good luck with that.
Cheers
Jim
Posted on: 29 August 2008 by av in bc
quote:Originally posted by Exiled Highlander:
"also edited"
What's your point?
what i posted is a copy of an email in its entirety from beresford sent to me after much
discussion with them about the piece of crap they sold me that
caused a horrible ground buzz in my naim system and all they did was blame Naim
and also didn't work in my av system and that i was ultimately stuck with and out over $200.
you suspect wrong jim, that's my point.
Posted on: 29 August 2008 by av in bc
i'm sure a lot of people are happy with their beresfords
probably more than those who aren't, i wasn't.
the product being defective is one thing and acceptable
as nothing is always perfect but the company itself leaves a lot to be desired.
the only adequate response to a customer who is not satisfied
with a brand new product is "send it back for a full refund".
probably more than those who aren't, i wasn't.
the product being defective is one thing and acceptable
as nothing is always perfect but the company itself leaves a lot to be desired.
the only adequate response to a customer who is not satisfied
with a brand new product is "send it back for a full refund".
Posted on: 29 August 2008 by Exiled Highlander
Well, my Beresford DAC is doing just great and is far from a piece of crap and the customer service was exemplary.
They have asked you to send it back for testing which seems fair to me as they don't have a dealer network or in-country distribution channel (which is in part how they keep the price to $200 or so). Is it the fact that they use Chinese manufacturing you don't like?
I assume you have tried it in a more "conventional" system that doesn't use Naim's star grounding to eliminate any fault other than some sort of ground loop? If it works then you can simply sell it on in good faith and spend $1000 on a Benchmark or Lavry instead.
Cheers
Jim
They have asked you to send it back for testing which seems fair to me as they don't have a dealer network or in-country distribution channel (which is in part how they keep the price to $200 or so). Is it the fact that they use Chinese manufacturing you don't like?
I assume you have tried it in a more "conventional" system that doesn't use Naim's star grounding to eliminate any fault other than some sort of ground loop? If it works then you can simply sell it on in good faith and spend $1000 on a Benchmark or Lavry instead.
Cheers
Jim
Posted on: 30 August 2008 by av in bc
is it so hard for you to understand that not everyone is as happy
with the beresford and the beresford brothers as you are?
i couldn't care less where its manufactured, why would that matter. it works or it doesn't.
sending it back to taiwan on my dime for testing, for a clearly defective unit is fair?
you call that exemplary customer service? it would take months to find out anything.
i mentioned in the previous post that i did try it in another setup with equally disastrous results.
everything else i plugin to my nait works fine why can't this?
and i'll spend a $1000 on whatever i like, you can keep your suggestions.
with the beresford and the beresford brothers as you are?
i couldn't care less where its manufactured, why would that matter. it works or it doesn't.
sending it back to taiwan on my dime for testing, for a clearly defective unit is fair?
you call that exemplary customer service? it would take months to find out anything.
i mentioned in the previous post that i did try it in another setup with equally disastrous results.
everything else i plugin to my nait works fine why can't this?
and i'll spend a $1000 on whatever i like, you can keep your suggestions.
Posted on: 30 August 2008 by Vaughn3D
I just ordered a Beresford for use with my Panasonic Blu-Ray player. I'm hoping it breathes some life into my concert DVDs...
Posted on: 30 August 2008 by Exiled Highlander
Dear disgruntled in bc
Cheers
Jim
OK.quote:and i'll spend a $1000 on whatever i like, you can keep your suggestions.
Cheers
Jim
Posted on: 30 August 2008 by thesherrif
quote:Originally posted by av in bc:
the only adequate response to a customer who is not satisfied
with a brand new product is "send it back for a full refund".
Gosh that's terrible isn't it? It's a damm disgrace.
Posted on: 01 September 2008 by PMR
Well, I've never sent back a Doner Kebab, because it's a Doner Kebab!!!quote:Originally posted by thesherrif:
Gosh that's terrible isn't it? It's a damm disgrace.
Posted on: 02 September 2008 by pcstockton
av in bc,
My experiences and EVERY other Ive have heard recounted, have been quite to the contrary.
Stanley has continued to try to figure out how to effectively ground his DAC within an All-Naim kit. He has done so without ANY prodding or requests to do so. I get an email from his every few weeks checking in.
He was previously unaware of Naim's very unique earthing methods. Due to the apparent popularity of his DAC among he has been working on a solution. Keep in mind that this only should affect those without any other Naim sources.
Through the entire process he has offered to both replace my unit, or refund my money at any point. He still will and it has been almost six months since I bought it.
Recently he has put on the short-list to demo his new DAC, which he is designing with us in mind. I believe he is going to use a different power supply to achieve harmony with Naim kits.
In any event, I suspect that you either are not being completely truthful, are impossible to please, or work for another DAC manufacturer.
EVERY single piece of overly bad press in other forums on the B-ford, has been proven to be bunk.
-Patrick
My experiences and EVERY other Ive have heard recounted, have been quite to the contrary.
Stanley has continued to try to figure out how to effectively ground his DAC within an All-Naim kit. He has done so without ANY prodding or requests to do so. I get an email from his every few weeks checking in.
He was previously unaware of Naim's very unique earthing methods. Due to the apparent popularity of his DAC among he has been working on a solution. Keep in mind that this only should affect those without any other Naim sources.
Through the entire process he has offered to both replace my unit, or refund my money at any point. He still will and it has been almost six months since I bought it.
Recently he has put on the short-list to demo his new DAC, which he is designing with us in mind. I believe he is going to use a different power supply to achieve harmony with Naim kits.
In any event, I suspect that you either are not being completely truthful, are impossible to please, or work for another DAC manufacturer.
EVERY single piece of overly bad press in other forums on the B-ford, has been proven to be bunk.
-Patrick
Posted on: 02 September 2008 by daddycool
quote:Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
..it may come down to what other units you have connected to the preamplifier.
For many long-term Naim users there will be a Naim CD player already in the system. In this unit a connection is made between signal earth and mains earth. If other "earth" potentials are introduced to the system hum may be produced by earth loops.
Adam,
Just wanted to be sure: The only way to properly ground a Naim amp is by hooking it up with a Naim CD player?
I'm asking this because I run a Nait 2 with a NAT05 tuner and a Rega turntable (and a Rega headphone amp), nothing else, doesn't the NAT05 ground anything?.
So do I have a grounding issue then? If so, what options do I have to improve this other than buying a Naim CD player (I hardly have any CDs left)?
Thanks, daddycool
Posted on: 02 September 2008 by av in bc
people sure like to suspect things around here and vilify others who may not share the same fan-boy devotion to a dac as they do.
let me once again give everybody the gist of it.
(with a loud voice) I HAD A LESS THAT COMPLETELY SATISFACTORY EXPERIENCE WITH A BERESFORD DAC. IT BUZZED THROUGH MY NAIT5.
I ASKED THE BERESFORDS A FEW QUESTIONS TO WHICH THEY RESPONDED BY CONTINUOUSLY BLAMEING NAIM AND THEIR ANTIQUATED USAGE OF DIN PLUGS.
I BOUGHT, FABRICATED AND MODIFIED 4 CABLES, PLUGED EVERY PIECE OF GEAR I HAVE INTO THE NAIT WITH THOSE CABLES
AND EVERYTHING WORKED FINE EXCEPT THE BERESFORD DAC.
THAT IS ALL. other than that shipping was fast, the unit is nice and professional looking so was the packaging, however it buzzed.
to be fair though my problem is a little different than yours in that mine buzzed all the time, whether with or without a source.
this happened quite while ago and i never mentioned this to anyone and after all the personal attacks
i wish i hadn't. all i proposed originally was to let you know what to do if your problem is not solved
and since you posted about the problem again 6 months or so later it seems that it isn't.
i'm glad he is offering you a refund, i did not receive that courtesy.
happy now that the dac is gone and the SuperNait is finally here. (yeah, i'm happy with that)
P.S. you call me a liar and you have a similar problem to the one i was having and you don't believe me?
do i look like i work for a dac manufacturer? and as far my ability to be pleased i don't have money
to burn and $200 is a vast amount of money for me so it's not too much to ask to have a dac that doesn't buzz.
how about i'm just a working man who doesn't like to be ripped-off, i can't remember ever returning anything in my life
i don't return soup, how about you save your sweeping judgements about me, all i did was buy a dac that buzzed.
P.P.S beware all who have non-worshipping comments about all that is beresford because the B-police is out
"EVERY single piece of overly bad press in other forums on the B-ford, has been proven to be bunk." Patrick
EVERY single one of them, without exception whatsoever, amen.
please dissect, edit, quote, take out of context, misunderstand,
don't read everything, only see what you want to see, judge
and post your comments below
let me once again give everybody the gist of it.
(with a loud voice) I HAD A LESS THAT COMPLETELY SATISFACTORY EXPERIENCE WITH A BERESFORD DAC. IT BUZZED THROUGH MY NAIT5.
I ASKED THE BERESFORDS A FEW QUESTIONS TO WHICH THEY RESPONDED BY CONTINUOUSLY BLAMEING NAIM AND THEIR ANTIQUATED USAGE OF DIN PLUGS.
I BOUGHT, FABRICATED AND MODIFIED 4 CABLES, PLUGED EVERY PIECE OF GEAR I HAVE INTO THE NAIT WITH THOSE CABLES
AND EVERYTHING WORKED FINE EXCEPT THE BERESFORD DAC.
THAT IS ALL. other than that shipping was fast, the unit is nice and professional looking so was the packaging, however it buzzed.
to be fair though my problem is a little different than yours in that mine buzzed all the time, whether with or without a source.
this happened quite while ago and i never mentioned this to anyone and after all the personal attacks
i wish i hadn't. all i proposed originally was to let you know what to do if your problem is not solved
and since you posted about the problem again 6 months or so later it seems that it isn't.
i'm glad he is offering you a refund, i did not receive that courtesy.
happy now that the dac is gone and the SuperNait is finally here. (yeah, i'm happy with that)
P.S. you call me a liar and you have a similar problem to the one i was having and you don't believe me?
do i look like i work for a dac manufacturer? and as far my ability to be pleased i don't have money
to burn and $200 is a vast amount of money for me so it's not too much to ask to have a dac that doesn't buzz.
how about i'm just a working man who doesn't like to be ripped-off, i can't remember ever returning anything in my life
i don't return soup, how about you save your sweeping judgements about me, all i did was buy a dac that buzzed.
P.P.S beware all who have non-worshipping comments about all that is beresford because the B-police is out
"EVERY single piece of overly bad press in other forums on the B-ford, has been proven to be bunk." Patrick
EVERY single one of them, without exception whatsoever, amen.
please dissect, edit, quote, take out of context, misunderstand,
don't read everything, only see what you want to see, judge
and post your comments below