Roon vs. System Automation

Posted by: Bart on 22 September 2018

Is there a chance Roon will be able to provide a volume control for Uniti series and system automation for my ND555/252 combo?  It's the ONE thing I really miss right now from the Naim App.  Roon clearly contemplates volume control for some devices . . . maybe I'm not doing it right?

Posted on: 22 September 2018 by ChrisSU

Not sure I understand what it is that youíre missing? Roon should be able to control volume on any of the new Naim streamers. 

....although now I think about it, is there an issue where Roon cannot cope with the +/- volume control in system automation?

Posted on: 23 September 2018 by SimonPeterArnold

Is your volume control set to device volume in the audio settings bit?  

Posted on: 23 September 2018 by Bart
SimonPeterArnold posted:

Is your volume control set to device volume in the audio settings bit?  

I don't believe that the ND555 has its own volume setting.  Volume control in Roon is set to "device volume" and Roon shows it as "volume control is fixed."

Posted on: 23 September 2018 by ChrisSU
Bart posted:
SimonPeterArnold posted:

Is your volume control set to device volume in the audio settings bit?  

I don't believe that the ND555 has its own volume setting.  Volume control in Roon is set to "device volume" and Roon shows it as "volume control is fixed."

I believe the ND555 does have a volume control (apart from system automation) but that it was included only to gain Apple Airplay certification, and is best avoided for sound quality reasons. 

Posted on: 23 September 2018 by Bart

Yeah I'll need Roon to work with system automation to solve this with the ND555.  

Posted on: 23 September 2018 by ChrisSU

Perhaps you have just discovered a use for the ND555 remote!

Posted on: 23 September 2018 by Chag...

I would love to know how to operate volume output control, or input control for that matter, on the ND555 if any. It would help me, and my back and knees when using my third party pre/autotransformer, or not. How about connecting the new monster directly to the 300? They both have plenty of tension and PRaT. ????

Chag -

Posted on: 23 September 2018 by SimonPeterArnold

What is this system automation then, does it just tell the nd555 to control the volume on the 252?  If so does the 252 use an ir remote that can change the volume? If it does then you could use a  harmony smart remote system. Their is now a Roon extension (user plugins)  that can be used to possibly do this with a harmony so any Roon volume changes in the app would trigger rf command to control the volume on the 252.

Posted on: 23 September 2018 by Bart
ChrisSU posted:

Perhaps you have just discovered a use for the ND555 remote!

I thought you might be on to something. So I picked up the ND555 remote, but then the papers it was weighing down blew in the breeze. Fail. 

Posted on: 23 September 2018 by Bart
SimonPeterArnold posted:

What is this system automation then, does it just tell the nd555 to control the volume on the 252?  If so does the 252 use an ir remote that can change the volume? If it does then you could use a  harmony smart remote system. Their is now a Roon extension (user plugins)  that can be used to possibly do this with a harmony so any Roon volume changes in the app would trigger rf command to control the volume on the 252.

Yes SA lets the Naim App tell a Naim ND player to tell the analog preamp to change volume by activating a small motor in the analog volume control. Requires a patch cord connecting the two. 

With the Naim App this means I can control analog volume with my iPhone or iPad. No need for a second device at hand. 

Posted on: 23 September 2018 by Simon-in-Suffolk
SimonPeterArnold posted:

What is this system automation then, does it just tell the nd555 to control the volume on the 252?  

Hi, itís a bit more than that. Yes the automation can control the NAC volume, and also the NAC inputs as well as controlling other devices like CD players. So for example you tell your streamer to control CD or FM Tuner, and it does this by telling the NAC to switch to the CD input or FM input.  With CD, you can connect the second automation output (with the first one connected to your NAC) to your Naim CDP and your streamer can play, pause, next/previous track on your CD player via the Naim app... itís all rather neat.. and it means I can dispense with remote controls sometimes.. by just using my iPad.

Another nice feature of automation (at least on the legacy streamers) is if you push UPnP media to your streamer, the streamer tells the NAC to automatically switch to the streamer input, so you donít even have to select the right preamp input... very neat.. and really useful when using BubbleSoft UPnP Server for my Qobuz if moving over from CD or FM tuner in my case.

Posted on: 24 September 2018 by SimonPeterArnold

I think it's upto the manufacturer to set how Roon controls the endpoints so it would need to be Naim to allow this to be controlled. My Atoms volume is controlled by Roon. You could post on the Roon support forum asking about it they will advise. Other than that as I said you could utilise a harmony hub to achieve this if the 252 can be controlled by ir. The new units can't be controlled by harmony as they use ZigBee not ir. But you won't be able to control the nd555 other than switching the volume control in audio settings to be device and not fixed. 

Posted on: 24 September 2018 by Bart
SimonPeterArnold posted:

I think it's upto the manufacturer to set how Roon controls the endpoints so it would need to be Naim to allow this to be controlled. My Atoms volume is controlled by Roon. You could post on the Roon support forum asking about it they will advise. Other than that as I said you could utilise a harmony hub to achieve this if the 252 can be controlled by ir. The new units can't be controlled by harmony as they use ZigBee not ir. But you won't be able to control the nd555 other than switching the volume control in audio settings to be device and not fixed. 

I took a quick look at Harmony remotes and in terms of controlling Roon itself those don't look nearly as compelling as using an iPhone or iPad. Which Harmony remote are you thinking of?

Posted on: 24 September 2018 by SimonPeterArnold

I think you misunderstand where I am going with this Its not to replace the ipad at all its in addition to it so it can mimic the ir functions of the naim remote for the 252 on the Harmony device and this can be triggered by Roon.  You use the ipad as normal to control Roon and the volume in Roon.

You install an extension for Roon (these are community made plugins essentially) that controls the harmony and essentially the 252. You can configure the extension so that when you change the volume in Roon it would trigger it to turn up/down the volume on the 252 via the harmony. 

The extension itself is called Deep Harmony - rich feature set for Logitech Harmony this itself runs either in a docker on a NAS or you can run in on Windows and Mac. Then Roon will see it in the extensions section of the settings menu. Check it out on the Tinkering Forum. 

 

You would essentially only need the hub not the remotes, just make sure its the one that supports IR you can buy these for about £74 from at Currys. or other sites.

Posted on: 24 September 2018 by Bart
SimonPeterArnold posted:

I think you misunderstand where I am going with this Its not to replace the ipad at all its in addition to it so it can mimic the ir functions of the naim remote for the 252 on the Harmony device and this can be triggered by Roon.  You use the ipad as normal to control Roon and the volume in Roon.

You install an extension for Roon (these are community made plugins essentially) that controls the harmony and essentially the 252. You can configure the extension so that when you change the volume in Roon it would trigger it to turn up/down the volume on the 252 via the harmony. 

The extension itself is called Deep Harmony - rich feature set for Logitech Harmony this itself runs either in a docker on a NAS or you can run in on Windows and Mac. Then Roon will see it in the extensions section of the settings menu. Check it out on the Tinkering Forum. 

 

You would essentially only need the hub not the remotes, just make sure its the one that supports IR you can buy these for about £74 from at Currys. or other sites.

Ahh - thanks!  Worth looking into for sure.

Posted on: 24 September 2018 by SimonPeterArnold

I'm using it for my Atom as I can also use the Harmony remote if I can't find the Nam one.  My boy hides things where I can't find them. Will also be using it for my 2nd non Niam Roon system in dining room as that has no remote control of my amplification chain at the mo. But it will change with this and I get to reduce the ir control for dac, speakers, tv and Bluetooth controller for the amazon box to one controller for them all.

Posted on: 24 September 2018 by rjstaines
Bart posted:
ChrisSU posted:

Perhaps you have just discovered a use for the ND555 remote!

I thought you might be on to something. So I picked up the ND555 remote, but then the papers it was weighing down blew in the breeze. Fail. 

Hey, it's universally accepted to listen to your music with the window closed, isn't it?   There were  two reasons:  first to keep the traffic noise from interferring with your low olume passages;   second as a courtesy to your neighbour who might not share with you the insight into what constitutes  good music.   But now, a third reason as Bert has discovered - to avoid displacement of documents weighed down by the ND555 remote.

The world advances right in front of us,  for goodness sake don't get left behind with an old, and broken NDS.

Oh bugger, I just realised none of my windows open, I'm climate controlled... I needn't have replaced my NDS with an ND555.

Posted on: 07 January 2019 by scubafink

Hi all.

Having read through this thread (and others), I still don't understand how to use the Roon app on my iphone to control the volume of my Naim NDX/282 that has system automation running well.

I current run my Roon system through a Synology NAS, SonoreUPnP bridge/NDX. etc..  My Naim app controls everything through system automation without issue.  However, when I use the Roon app through UPnP input on the NDX, I cannot control volume through the Roon app. I must instead either do that manually, switch to the Naim App, or use the NDX remote.

Am I missing something?  Is there a solution?

Posted on: 07 January 2019 by ChrisSU

I donít think youíre missing anything, system automation volume control canít be controlled by Roon. Youíll need to use the Naim app or remote for this. 

Posted on: 08 January 2019 by Bart

Yes Chris is right; it comes up every once in a while, and I myself every few weeks think, "Why can't I do this?"  But it's not possible (at least at the moment with present software). 

After several years of never touching the Naim remote, I now have to keep it at my side when listening.

Posted on: 08 January 2019 by SimonPeterArnold

 You can control the volume on the naim preamp via Roon app if you use a Harmony Hub in conjunction with a Roon extension called Deep Harmony. The harmony hub sends ir commands to the preamp and the extension allows Roonc volume control to do this. I have it controlling my Active speakers which are not Roon ready in my second system from the Roon app. 

Posted on: 08 January 2019 by engjoo
scubafink posted:

Hi all.

Having read through this thread (and others), I still don't understand how to use the Roon app on my iphone to control the volume of my Naim NDX/282 that has system automation running well.

I current run my Roon system through a Synology NAS, SonoreUPnP bridge/NDX. etc..  My Naim app controls everything through system automation without issue.  However, when I use the Roon app through UPnP input on the NDX, I cannot control volume through the Roon app. I must instead either do that manually, switch to the Naim App, or use the NDX remote.

Am I missing something?  Is there a solution?

Roon does not work on the earlier streamers. Only on the new Uniti series and ND555/NDX2/ND5XS2.

Posted on: 08 January 2019 by ChrisSU
engjoo posted:
scubafink posted:

Hi all.

Having read through this thread (and others), I still don't understand how to use the Roon app on my iphone to control the volume of my Naim NDX/282 that has system automation running well.

I current run my Roon system through a Synology NAS, SonoreUPnP bridge/NDX. etc..  My Naim app controls everything through system automation without issue.  However, when I use the Roon app through UPnP input on the NDX, I cannot control volume through the Roon app. I must instead either do that manually, switch to the Naim App, or use the NDX remote.

Am I missing something?  Is there a solution?

Roon does not work on the earlier streamers. Only on the new Uniti series and ND555/NDX2/ND5XS2.

Heís using the Sonore UPnP bridge to feed Roon to his streamer. One of various workarounds that will get Roon to work with the old streamers. 

Posted on: 08 January 2019 by engjoo
ChrisSU posted:
engjoo posted:
scubafink posted:

Hi all.

Having read through this thread (and others), I still don't understand how to use the Roon app on my iphone to control the volume of my Naim NDX/282 that has system automation running well.

I current run my Roon system through a Synology NAS, SonoreUPnP bridge/NDX. etc..  My Naim app controls everything through system automation without issue.  However, when I use the Roon app through UPnP input on the NDX, I cannot control volume through the Roon app. I must instead either do that manually, switch to the Naim App, or use the NDX remote.

Am I missing something?  Is there a solution?

Roon does not work on the earlier streamers. Only on the new Uniti series and ND555/NDX2/ND5XS2.

Heís using the Sonore UPnP bridge to feed Roon to his streamer. One of various workarounds that will get Roon to work with the old streamers. 

Ok I stand corrected. My apologies. I have not tried Roon myself. Will attempt it soon!

Posted on: 08 January 2019 by ChrisSU
engjoo posted:
ChrisSU posted:
engjoo posted:
scubafink posted:

Hi all.

Having read through this thread (and others), I still don't understand how to use the Roon app on my iphone to control the volume of my Naim NDX/282 that has system automation running well.

I current run my Roon system through a Synology NAS, SonoreUPnP bridge/NDX. etc..  My Naim app controls everything through system automation without issue.  However, when I use the Roon app through UPnP input on the NDX, I cannot control volume through the Roon app. I must instead either do that manually, switch to the Naim App, or use the NDX remote.

Am I missing something?  Is there a solution?

Roon does not work on the earlier streamers. Only on the new Uniti series and ND555/NDX2/ND5XS2.

Heís using the Sonore UPnP bridge to feed Roon to his streamer. One of various workarounds that will get Roon to work with the old streamers. 

Ok I stand corrected. My apologies. I have not tried Roon myself. Will attempt it soon!

No apology required! There seems to be a workaround for pretty much everything these days if you look hard enough...