Sonore UPNP Bridge

crossmeister posted:

Hi,

Does anyone have a photo of the Sonore UPNP Bridge outputs?  The image at https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/products/upnpbridge?variant=6964135395362 only shows the front...

Thanks

You tap on google images » sonore ultrarendu back » , and you find it. I tried.

The dedicated box that will run the SonoreUPnP Bridge, offered by SGC at https://www.smallgreencomputer...ariant=6964135395362 will only need a Ethernet connection to operate.

It presents a Roon Endpoint to your Roon Core, but send a UPnP stream to the Ethernet input of your Naim Network player.

it is the easily, simplest & IMHO the best way of providing Roon integration to the older Naim streaming products.

What are the USB connections for then? Would that work for the HDX too? Or is it a Upnp server only, as I remember?

Can anyone comment on the performance of NDX and NDS with such a UPNP bridge for Roon please as compared to more traditional feed to a Naim streamer?

Yes, once you have the SonicorbiterOS version up at greater than 2.5, it all works fine. The earlier versions were on older hardware also, so if you buy a Sonore Rendu today or the dedicated bridge product offered on Small Green Computer, you will get the latest SonicoriberOS version by default.

So I have the UPnP Bridge running, and it outputs either the source format (FLAC etc.) or will transcode PCM formats to WAV - so FLAC, ALAC, ACC, and MP3, are all played as WAV on the Naim network player, with no issues up to 24/192.
It also outputs native DSD, and this is up to DSD64.

As it is Roon driving, the Roon Core will automatically downconvert any higher formats to match the capabilities of the endpoint - so any 24/384 is played at 24/192 and DSD128 & DSD256 played at DSD64 - so no worrying about future format support anymore!  BTW there are very few 24/384 (DXD) and DSD128/256 recordings out there, and then you have to consider where they came from, as many studios don't have the capabilities of recording/mastering DXD etc.
But that's a different point, subject and debate.

So in terms of Roon usability, it is very straightforward, the Bridge just appears as a regular Endpoint or in a Zone, and you select it, select the track, album, playlist, internet radio station and hit play, and the Naim 'Classic' Network player behaves is if was a Roon Ready device.

I have played with an ND555 in a Roon environment (thanks to [@mention:1566878603867476]) and operating behaviour of the Bridge and a Roon Ready Naim device, is very similar - you just don't get the Album artwork on the screen of the Classic product. However, you do get what the streaming format is, you don't get on the ND555 display. But everything is covered in the Roon Remote display - Artist bio, album review, contributing artists, other works available, appearances, suggested similar artists, performances, plus the playback path, the format of the track, its location and audio analysis.
Plus I can use a Chromecast as a display device, so the Album Artwork, Artist picture, the track being played can be displayed on my TV screen - now that's bigger than the ND555/NDX2 front display!

SQ of local content is either identical to direct from a UPnP server - I use a dedicated RPi running a lean OS, and Asset R6.1, with dynamic transcoding to WAV, and pass through for DSD, or in fact better.
Playback of Tidal is better, as the streamed FLAC is transcoded to WAV.
Plus with Roon, you get MQA support, either on any local MQA files or streamed Tidal Masters, to 1st unfold, so upto 24/96. So this is better, than any UPnP based server, such as Uniti Core, Uniti Serve, Melco etc.

Frankly, I see no reason to use the Naim App & direct UPnP server for playback any more - I still have it and the UPnP server, as backup, but have not had any reason to use it, in many months.

So use of the UPnP Bridge allows a Classic Network Player to be Roon Ready & future format proof, without having to change it/upgrade.
And for me, with an NDS, the upgrade to an ND555 is just too great a step in financial terms, and a don't believe VFM for what it offers, in additional features/functionality.

Simon.

Thanks for taking the time for such a comprehensive reply. It’s really appreciated. This seems like a viable option for me.

I have been building out a modest ‘Classic’ system in my office and have been really enjoying the SQ and engaging in the endless options for climbing the Naim ladder. All good clean fun. Currently that system is MacBook Pro (Roon Core) —>Audiophileo USB/SPDIF—>nDAC—>112x/HICAP—>150x—>ProAc Tablette 50 Signature, There is also a CD5/Flatcap too. All on Fraim. It’s turned out to be a nice little system and I had envisaged slowly upgrading it through some of the Naim tiers (for educational purposes ;-) ). The 200/202 was going to be the next target but I may skip a level to get a 282/250 or 300. I will probably drop the CD5 now though because it’s comprehensively outperformed by the nDAC.

I’ve been running Roon now for a couple of years already and the Roon side is now developing quickly as I move to a NUC7i5 running ROCK in a fanless case with a new Synology 418j NAS over the next few weeks. I originally bought fanless as I thought this new ROCK would be able to act as an endpoint in itself and replace an Auralic Aries as the Roon endpoint in my main hifi (non-Naim) which would mean I could move the Aries to pair with the nDAC in the office.

This UPNP bridge brings me an interesting new option. First I should get an XPS on the DAC and then maybe an NDX to go with it. Later, after the amplification has levelled up, an NDS would be a possibility replacing the NDX/DAC. The new ND5XS2 is a viable option right now of course but the current prices of NDX and NDS make that seem like a bit of a dead end.

fordy posted:

Thanks for taking the time for such a comprehensive reply. It’s really appreciated. This seems like a viable option for me.

I have been building out a modest ‘Classic’ system in my office and have been really enjoying the SQ and engaging in the endless options for climbing the Naim ladder. All good clean fun. Currently that system is MacBook Pro (Roon Core) —>Audiophileo USB/SPDIF—>nDAC—>112x/HICAP—>150x—>ProAc Tablette 50 Signature, There is also a CD5/Flatcap too. All on Fraim. It’s turned out to be a nice little system and I had envisaged slowly upgrading it through some of the Naim tiers (for educational purposes ;-) ). The 200/202 was going to be the next target but I may skip a level to get a 282/250 or 300. I will probably drop the CD5 now though because it’s comprehensively outperformed by the nDAC.

I’ve been running Roon now for a couple of years already and the Roon side is now developing quickly as I move to a NUC7i5 running ROCK in a fanless case with a new Synology 418j NAS over the next few weeks. I originally bought fanless as I thought this new ROCK would be able to act as an endpoint in itself and replace an Auralic Aries as the Roon endpoint in my main hifi (non-Naim) which would mean I could move the Aries to pair with the nDAC in the office.

This UPNP bridge brings me an interesting new option. First I should get an XPS on the DAC and then maybe an NDX to go with it. Later, after the amplification has levelled up, an NDS would be a possibility replacing the NDX/DAC. The new ND5XS2 is a viable option right now of course but the current prices of NDX and NDS make that seem like a bit of a dead end.

But if you have the nDac with USB input, then you should be able to go directly from ROCK on the NUC to the nDac.

Alternatively, if you get a uRendu, you could use the USB connection also. Or try an Allo Signature, as Roon Endpoint.

The UPnP Bride option works best, when it is just a Network Player, so can use the optimized Ethernet input.

I would of thought that UPnP Bridge -> NDX -> nDAC with PSU is a bit overkill, as there is quite a bit of system duplication, in the streaming and also DAC elements.

Thanks, Simon.

new product from sonore:  sonore opticalrendu.   with fiber optic connection.   can interests someone....

simes_pep posted:

But if you have the nDac with USB input, then you should be able to go directly from ROCK on the NUC to the nDac.

Alternatively, if you get a uRendu, you could use the USB connection also. Or try an Allo Signature, as Roon Endpoint.

 

I don't think you can use the Naim DAC in this way (unlike the DAC-V1). It'll read a thumb drive via USB but not be recognised by a computer / USB renderer. 

simes_pep posted:

fordy posted:

Thanks for taking the time for such a comprehensive reply. It’s really appreciated. This seems like a viable option for me.

I have been building out a modest ‘Classic’ system in my office and have been really enjoying the SQ and engaging in the endless options for climbing the Naim ladder. All good clean fun. Currently that system is MacBook Pro (Roon Core) —>Audiophileo USB/SPDIF—>nDAC—>112x/HICAP—>150x—>ProAc Tablette 50 Signature, There is also a CD5/Flatcap too. All on Fraim. It’s turned out to be a nice little system and I had envisaged slowly upgrading it through some of the Naim tiers (for educational purposes ;-) ). The 200/202 was going to be the next target but I may skip a level to get a 282/250 or 300. I will probably drop the CD5 now though because it’s comprehensively outperformed by the nDAC.

I’ve been running Roon now for a couple of years already and the Roon side is now developing quickly as I move to a NUC7i5 running ROCK in a fanless case with a new Synology 418j NAS over the next few weeks. I originally bought fanless as I thought this new ROCK would be able to act as an endpoint in itself and replace an Auralic Aries as the Roon endpoint in my main hifi (non-Naim) which would mean I could move the Aries to pair with the nDAC in the office.

This UPNP bridge brings me an interesting new option. First I should get an XPS on the DAC and then maybe an NDX to go with it. Later, after the amplification has levelled up, an NDS would be a possibility replacing the NDX/DAC. The new ND5XS2 is a viable option right now of course but the current prices of NDX and NDS make that seem like a bit of a dead end.

But if you have the nDac with USB input, then you should be able to go directly from ROCK on the NUC to the nDac.

Alternatively, if you get a uRendu, you could use the USB connection also. Or try an Allo Signature, as Roon Endpoint.

The UPnP Bride option works best, when it is just a Network Player, so can use the optimized Ethernet input.

I would of thought that UPnP Bridge -> NDX -> nDAC with PSU is a bit overkill, as there is quite a bit of system duplication, in the streaming and also DAC elements.

Thanks, Simon.

yes in fact that was the original plan, to feed the NUC directly into USB/SPDIF convertor and onto the nDAC but I like the idea of doing that instead on my main system (NUC into Luxman D-03 USB input). This leaves the Naim system with an opportunity for a different streaming solution to the Aries I have now. I know there are other non-Naim Roon endpoints out there and indeed the uRendu has always been a contender (not for its build in UPNP bridge) but why bother if I already have the excellent Aries? However, I do like the idea of the stand alone UPNP bridge product being discussed here to enable an older Naim streamer as a Roon endpoint. The NDX and NDS are impeccable products right?

james n posted:

simes_pep posted:

But if you have the nDac with USB input, then you should be able to go directly from ROCK on the NUC to the nDac.

Alternatively, if you get a uRendu, you could use the USB connection also. Or try an Allo Signature, as Roon Endpoint.

 

I don't think you can use the Naim DAC in this way (unlike the DAC-V1). It'll read a thumb drive via USB but not be recognised by a computer / USB renderer. 

that's right, the nDAC does not have it's own USB input but I have a USB/SPDIF convertor hanging off the back of one of the SPDIF inputs. It's an Audiophileo 1 which is essentially the same as that in the DAC-V1 in fact. Mine is just outside the box, rather than inside.

It would be nice if the software could be licenced (for a fee) as I expect  it could easily run on a Pi or a Linux based NAS.

Yes and it would be even nicer if Roon themselves would implement it or something similar so all those legacy UPNP streamers can come out of retirement.

trickydickie posted:

It would be nice if the software could be licenced (for a fee) as I expect  it could easily run on a Pi or a Linux based NAS.

By the looks of the device here https://www.smallgreencomputer...ariant=6964135395362 this like a RPi in a metal case. So at $229, this makes for the cheapest method of bridge Roon to the Classic Naim Network players.

Plus, with cost of parts for the RPi board, SD card, metal case & PSU, packaging, they are not making much as margin. So to licence it as a License fee, but there would be a higher support costs, with install and operation.

fordy posted:

Yes and it would be even nicer if Roon themselves would implement it or something similar so all those legacy UPNP streamers can come out of retirement.

I’m sure they could provide something similar to their Squeezebox support, after all this UPnP bridge is based on Squeezebox based library and could be included in the Roon Core build.

But Roon would have to declared support for the UPnP protocol, which they have stated they will not, and are quite fanatical in their dislike, hence RAAT and their own protocol. This was developed as part as the Sooloos project, part to Meridian ownership, before they spun out as Roon.

Best option is the dedicated bridge from Small Green Computer, at $229 to add ‘Roon Readiness’ to an NDS, NDX, ND5XS, 172 or 272 (should work with a HDX too).