Cables and direction

I have got to say that I still dont understand directional speaker wire - since the signal going to the speaker is an alternating voltage and so the direction of the current will be in both directions, why should the 'direction' of the wire matter... the main reason you need a positive (red) and negative (black) connection is to get the phase to be the same with both speakers...

Why the 'directional' of the wire makes a difference I really dont understand  

fernar posted:

I have got to say that I still dont understand directional speaker wire - since the signal going to the speaker is an alternating voltage and so the direction of the current will be in both directions, why should the 'direction' of the wire matter... the main reason you need a positive (red) and negative (black) connection is to get the phase to be the same with both speakers...

Why the 'directional' of the wire makes a difference I really dont understand  

Cheaper cables use the shield as a conductor, whereas better cables use two internal conductors (+ and -) with a separate shield. In directional cables this shield is only connected (earthed) at one end, hence the arrow.

NacA5, as an example, is directional, but is unshielded. Naim test the reels of cable and decide which way round sounds better. 

As HH sez,  Naim & a few others say they test to see which way sounds best.    The theory is that the wire drawing process causes irregularities in the molecular structure & that these can affect electron flow in different directions similar to a semiconductor.  ........  well thats the theory.   

Outside that there are cables that are assembled to be truly directional;  these are typically signal IC's where the signal +ve & -ve pair are in a screened cable & the screen is connected to signal -ve at the source end only.  

So Naim stamp the writing into the cable?

Would be very interesting to watch how many audiophile cables are actually made. Looking through the interweb there is very little if none recorded to watch this process. 

What with an ever evolving mix of the complexities, it would be worthwhile to even understand visually the simplest of the methods behind a cables becoming into the world.

Granthar posted:

So Naim stamp the writing into the cable?

Hi Granthar, I don't think any of us have supplied an answer to your original question - I did a search and found a discussion on this Forum from 2005. I've cut and pasted this:

The arrows on NACA5 indicate the direction of the signal (toward the speakers). The positive wire of the cable is identified by a raised rib along the length of the insulation material.

There is no raised rib on the negative side.

I don't use NACA5 myself so I trust if this is wrong that an actual user will correct me. Anyway, hope it helps answer your question.

I've seen it said that differences in cable direction are marginal when cables are new - but that if a cable has been played in one direction for years (even if that was against the direction arrow on the cable), then you should keep playing it in that direction.

Is that true?

And if so why?

It really depends on the phase of the moon when the cable was born.

Someone once told me that Super Lumina cables are only ever manufactured when there is a full moon and that is the basic reason why they are so expensive, because the manufactured quantity is quite small.  

But I didn't totally believe her.

best

David

David Hendon posted:

It really depends on the phase of the moon when the cable was born.

Someone once told me that Super Lumina cables are only ever manufactured when there is a full moon and that is the basic reason why they are so expensive, because the manufactured quantity is quite small.  

But I didn't totally believe her.

best

David

Sorry David, but this has already been extensively covered in the past, best summed up by this previous post from FrankF :

"I have just been given a sample of a newly developed Super Cable and it is truly beyond expectation.

The wire forming the cable is formed from a billet of pure, electrolytic, oxygen free copper and is drawn at room temperature by two Shire Horses walking slowly apart. The process is very slow and this helps the wire structure but the horses therefore produce a great quantity of manure during the process. The gases from the manure rise from the ground and react with the wire surface to make significant changes to the structure, which improves Sound Quality by an order of magnitude.

The suppliers of this cable are now looking for a name under which the cable can be marketed.

Forum members are asked to suggest suitable names and provide suitable contact details for companies wanting to exploit this discovery.

The Company who have developed this cable are now experimenting with wire drawn between two bullocks and maybe suitable names can also be suggested for this product."

I trust this clears up any confuddlement. 

I'm assuming that this is a new product made by the Schiit company?

best

David

hungryhalibut posted:

NacA5, as an example, is directional, but is unshielded. Naim test the reels of cable and decide which way round sounds better. 

It's a bit more than just a test to hear which way sounds better - rather a test to ensure that the printed direction on NACA5 is correct (i.e. the arrows are printed the right way in accordance with the direction which sounds best).  On an occasion when a new batch arrived and the listening test found the opposite direction sounded best, then after an investigation it was found to be a manufacturing error with the direction printing, IIRC.  

However, for interconnect cabling, Burndy cabling etc..  it is a case of testing for direction from batch to batch - direction determined by best sound performance. A number of same length pieces would be cut from any new batch and then assembled into i/cs, SNAICs etc.. and then listened to one way and then the other. That way, with multiple samples, a conclusion can quickly be determined on the preferred direction of any particular batch of cabling.

Granthar posted:

if cables are directional does the negative conductor of a speaker cable go in the opposite direction?

No. The directionality of the cable is due to the sheathing. 

Willy.

Richard Dane posted:

hungryhalibut posted:

NacA5, as an example, is directional, but is unshielded. Naim test the reels of cable and decide which way round sounds better. 

It's a bit more than just a test to hear which way sounds better - rather a test to ensure that the printed direction on NACA5 is correct (i.e. the arrows are printed the right way in accordance with the direction which sounds best).  On an occasion when a new batch arrived and the listening test found the opposite direction sounded best, then after an investigation it was found to be a manufacturing error with the direction printing, IIRC.  

However, for interconnect cabling, Burndy cabling etc..  it is a case of testing for direction from batch to batch - direction determined by best sound performance. A number of same length pieces would be cut from any new batch and then assembled into i/cs, SNAICs etc.. and then listened to one way and then the other. That way, with multiple samples, a conclusion can quickly be determined on the preferred direction of any particular batch of cabling.

LOVE IT ????

This above,as Richard describes,is what I love about Naim,..”Attention To Detail”.
This is so important for the best Soundquality.

? Example like this,that Richard describes above creates,builds trust.!

? An Example Of Another Philosophy: In Gothenburg,Sweden..A few years ago.

Linn's MD Gilad Tiefenbrun said very clearly and irritated before a Linn dealer,two premium customers and a Linn colleague from Linn HQ that...
? "We're not going to do that" ?

It was a bit strange atmosphere in the room after that.
The Linn reseller,..and the two premium customers,wanted to show the music-differences in the direction of internal-cabling in a Linn Klimax product.

Everyone present heard the music-difference in cable direction inside the Linn Klimax product,even Gilad's colleague from Linn HQ....but not Linn's MD Gilad Tiefenbrun.

But Gilad took the decision....
? "We’re not going to do that" ?

Linn has contacts on there internal-cabling,so it is easy to change the direction..to listen to the best direction.
This obviously should be done on a product that costs over £ 16000:-.
Here it is "Good Enough" that applies,..Not as with Naim ”Attention To Detail”.

? Honors Naim for this.!

Results of Linn MD Gilad's decision,..the Linn store in Stockholm,Sweden..High Fidelity.
They have for many years opened,controlled and changed the internal-cabling to the best direction,..Before delivering the product to the customer.
Honor to such a store.!

But how many customers do you think,playing with a Linn product with the wrong internal cable direction.?

This above describes a major difference in philosophy,..And I know what I prioritize..Naim.!

/Peder ????

So Willy - are you saying that the directionality of a cable is only due to sheathing and not to the effects of the cable manufacturing process on the structure of faults in the metal?

Julian Vereker once opined on the original Naim forum that NACA5 probably became directional when the outer sheathing was applied - some kind of annealing, or similar was his theory. But nothing proved...

'The definitive empirical evidence of directionality demands seeking a scientific explanation. What is the technical explanation for directionality?

In order to fabricate copper or silver into a strand or conductor, it must first be cast and then drawn through a die—a process that inevitably creates a directional, chevron-like pattern in the conductor’s internal grain structure and a non-symmetrical overlay of grains at the conductor’s surface.

A conductor’s asymmetrical surface structure causes a directional difference in impedance at noise frequencies and very high interference frequencies. Due to skin-effect, such high-frequency energy travels almost exclusively on the surface of a conductor, giving significance to the directional difference in impedance at these frequencies. Because all energy will always take the path of least resistance, when a cable is oriented so that the high-frequency noise—whether from a computer, radio station, cell tower, etc.—is “directed” to ground, or to the end of the cable attached to less vulnerable equipment, the dynamic intermodulation and associated ringing generated in the active electronics will be greatly reduced.

The unpleasant, strained sound that occurs when conductors have the wrong orientation is the result of noise entering and causing misbehavior and intermodulation in an active circuit. The more relaxed, full-bodied sound of correctly oriented conductors is the product of less high-frequency interference—conductor directionality fully acknowledged and put to its best use!'

JimDog posted:

So Willy - are you saying that the directionality of a cable is only due to sheathing and not to the effects of the cable manufacturing process on the structure of faults in the metal?

What I'd read, and this is going back quite a few years, from a couple of sources was that the application of the sheathing to the cable was what caused the cables to be directional. The manufacturers were aware of this but didn't (at that time) understand the mechanism.  One source even suggested that power transmission companies were aware of directionality and installed their high voltage cables in the appropriate direction (I've been unable to substantiate this claim). I'm not aware of any more recent revelations regarding the mechanism but I haven't looked into it. 

As Richard pointed out JV speculated that it could be an annealing effect on the conductor as the molten sheathing is applied and cooled.

I suppose it would be possible to strip the sheathing off a length of cable and see it it still displays directional as a bare conductor (don't try this at home). If so then that would suggest that the effect is due to some change in the conductor (such as the annealing suggested by JV) rather than proximity of the sheathing material.

Regards,

Willy.

Imteresting. Thanks Willy.

I had a 10 min look on Google Scholar but couldn't see anything on directionality in cables. But that doesn't mean it isn't known and recorded somewhere.

I read a paper by the physicist Steven Weinberg once that said that electrons are not things, but are really more like standing waves of energy - like an organ note centred on the atomic neucleus. If so, it makes me wonder whether electrons could get somehow 'turned around' or get chirality or directionality as they flow from one atom to the next over a period of time. But that is pure speculation on my part (or would be Bullshit as the Daves suggest, if I were claiming it as a fact rather than a possibility). It has nothing to do with the sheathing process you describe...

Jimdog,

I do recall that such information as I found wasn't easily come by (must have been especially bored that evening). Some of it was buried in references deep in various hifi forums, though the JV comments do surface from time to time. 

Willy.

JimDog posted:

...

I read a paper by the physicist Steven Weinberg once that said that electrons are not things, but are really more like standing waves of energy - like an organ note centred on the atomic neucleus. If so, it makes me wonder whether electrons could get somehow 'turned around' or get chirality or directionality as they flow from one atom to the next over a period of time. But that is pure speculation on my part (or would be Bullshit as the Daves suggest, if I were claiming it as a fact rather than a possibility). It has nothing to do with the sheathing process you describe...

For electrons held in an atom that's a very good analogy; however the best name for what an electron is, is the term 'waveicle', i.e somewhere between a wave and a particle.  The balance of properties it shows depends on its environment, its energy level and how you observe those properties.

In reality an electron isn't a solid object located at a given place it's a distributed probability function, both in its mass and its electrical charge.
That's a bit of a weird concept, but once you get your head around it, a lot of other things (like the single photon interference experiment) start to make a lot more sense.

Jonners posted:

The positive wire of the cable is identified by a raised rib along the length of the insulation material.

There is no raised rib on the negative side.

This assumes the person who terminated the cable knew this convention. I've just had a piece of A5 back from a dealer who I'd asked to reterminate it. They got the direction right - I'd asked for Naim plugs at the speaker end - but didn't follow the convention for the raised rib. So, actually, the cable as it goes into my Allaes has the ribbed edge on the negative side. The amp end has Qute-specific plugs which fit either way round, so I just needed to make sure I got them the right way round!

Of course, if someone wasn't being careful, and put Naim plugs on both ends, it would be possible to get them (ie one end) the opposing way round.

Huge - yes, I'm well aware that mainstream quantum physics treats the electron as a distributed probability function. And that works for many practical purposes of manipulating and measuring quanta. But that doesn't tell us what quanta (e.g. electrons) are. It tells us how they behave in aggregate, statisitcally.

David Bohm, and Louise deBroglie before him, both disagreed with this as a model of what quanta actually are. Bohm described the electron as having a trajectory - which could be considered as a central spot where most of the energy of that wave is focussed. Also described as a particle with a pilot wave. Art Hobson has written a brilliant AJP paper - 'There are no particles, there are only waves.'

It is interesting to consider what those divergent theories each suggest is happening as electrical waves (minimal 'chunks' of the electron field of the standard model of particle physics) form electrical signals carrying audio information along a cable.