Opinions please on upgrading my streaming system

Posted by: SMH on 29 October 2018

I currently have NDX 2 - Supernait 2 as preamp - NAP250DR - PMC25.24 - Roon on Mac serving files and Tidal over network. 

The NDX2 is improving all the time as it is running in and i’m very pleased with the way it sounds (it replaced a usb connected Hugo2 from my Mac)

I would like opinions on what people think might sound best if my upgrade budget was around £4k I have two currently very different thoughts but would welcome others. I listen to tidal maybe 65% of the time and my Flac ripped CDs the rest of the time

1) naimXPS

or

2) melco N100  and tellurium Q ultra black speaker cable (my current cable is QED revelation was less than £200 for 4m pair)

Any thoughts?

Posted on: 29 October 2018 by trickydickie

I would be looking for a used 282 and either a Hicap DR or Supercap to replace the Supernait. 

The Supernait’s preamp is holding your system back, I would address this first before making any other improvements.

I would also try some Naim NACA5 speaker cable.

Posted on: 29 October 2018 by Bart

I would go for the best preamp and power supply for it that you can afford.  I went from SN2 to 252/Supercap/250DR and I'm thrilled.

Posted on: 29 October 2018 by SMH

Thanks for your comments both of you.  I had wondered about preamps, but had to discount that because with power supplies they are double my budget.

I guess i’m trying to work out which would improve the sound more a melco and better speaker cables or a power supply for my ndx2.. Do you think there is no point in doing either either because my supernait2 with its DR power supply is too limiting?

Posted on: 29 October 2018 by hungryhalibut

With £4K and the trade in on the Supernait, a 282 and Hicap DR is easily doable, and is what you should do. Forget the Melco and get a good Nas for £500. 

Posted on: 29 October 2018 by SMH

Thanks for your comments HH, and for your consensus all three of you. 

I’ll see my local dealers and explore a trade in. 

Posted on: 29 October 2018 by garyi

Not sure where your mac fits in, but if its used for other duties consider a dedicated server solution, this does not need to be particularly fancy. Mine runs in a virtual on a dell precision, a lot of PC for the money but its big and ugly so lives in the garage.

Not sure if it will improve sound but it feels nice to have a dedicated server

Posted on: 29 October 2018 by SMH

Hi Gary. The Mac is delicated to music duty. It is my Roon server and also serves my music files to the network. 

Posted on: 29 October 2018 by Innocent Bystander

How did the Mac feed the Hugo? (What rendering software, and what RF isolation?)

Hugo is very susceptible to RF and a computer output without very good isolation will have downgraded the sound quality, likely to a very substantial degree if there was no isolation at all.  Meanwhile Roon’s rendered output is said to have been improving from a year or two ago, so may be up to the mark now, I don’t know as I haven’t heard. Quite a few on the forum have upgraded NDX by using it as a renderer feeding Hugo, but of course NDX2 is a different beast - though if you still have the H it can do no harm giving it a whirl.

Posted on: 30 October 2018 by SMH

I used a decent audioquest usb cable and jitterbug between my mac and the Hugo2. The renderer that I used to begin with was Audirvana for maybe a year, with good results. I changed to Roon after that because I loved the way it let me explore my existing music and find new music. I didn’t notice a sound quality difference between the two bits of software, so if there was one, to my older ears it was very small.

I found the Hugo2 incredibly detailed and use it now for mobile listening with my Audeze LC3 headphones, driven by iPad through jitterbug, again using Roon. It was very enjoyable listening while sitting In the shade of a tree in the garden during this summers good weather. 

I did try the Hugo 2 on the digital out of the NDX2 in the first week I had it. There was a subtle difference to the sound not better or worse, but I didn’t spend very long trying it out. I think the sound of the NDX2 is in any case evolving as it gets more hours use and runs in. The most obvious difference for me is that with my system the Hugo2, after a few hours listening, could cause slight fatigue. I used to play around with the filters on the Hugo2, especially with music that didn’t have the best production. With the NDX2 although it is much more expensive, I am not feeling the fatigue. 

Posted on: 30 October 2018 by Blackmorec

Don’t know what your network is like but if its the typical UK installation it starts with a ISP supplied modem/router. I assume your Internet supply has reasonable to good performance

If so, I would buy a good, high speed 3 band router like a TPLink AC5400 or Netgear Nighthawk, a decent ethernet cable like Meicord to link the 2, a dual rail Linear Power Supply to power both the modem and router. On the hi-fi end I would buy a really good reclocking network switch like the AQVox SE and another LPS for that plus another Meicord 

You’ve now spent ca. £ 2000 or 50% of your budget, so plenty left for some NACA5 cable.  

Posted on: 30 October 2018 by SMH

Interesting reading about the AQVox products thanks Blackmorec. Your suggestions focus on removing/reducing electrical noise across wired Ethernet, and some advantages from a reclocking switch.

It started me wondering about only having a wireless connection to my ndx2 to eliminate electrical noise. The NDX 2 web info mentions that the NDX does its own timing so maybe the reclocking on a switch would also not help? “Rather than the source acting as the digital timing master, our new streaming board turns things around and allows our DAC clock to control the flow of audio data.”

As long as I create a fast music dedicated wireless network (ie keep family and non music internet devices on another wireless network) would that be better than a wired one?

Posted on: 30 October 2018 by SMH

Just tried wireless connection to my NDX2 rather than the wired, with my home network there is definately an improvement in the sound. The bass has a more solid quality, think i’ll stick with it like this for a week or so then switch back and see how I feel it sounds.

Posted on: 30 October 2018 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Smh, what on earth is a ‘reclocking switch’......

An Ethernet access and Wifi each have their pros and cons, but overall there are generally more benefits in using Ethernet.

Segregating different Wifi SSIDs, but you would need to map different SSIDs to different subnet. User priority differentiation on  Wifi SSIDs can have benefits in mixed traffic scenarios, but generally if such considerations are prefereable then 802.11e is implemented, and I don’t believe Naim supports this protocol so the Wifi implementation would be rather basic in this regard.

Posted on: 30 October 2018 by Bert Schurink
hungryhalibut posted:

With £4K and the trade in on the Supernait, a 282 and Hicap DR is easily doable, and is what you should do. Forget the Melco and get a good Nas for £500. 

Adding a fourth one in the same direction. First get your pre-amp fixed so that you open up your system. Then you could think about adding the XPS for your NDX2 and after that I would shoot for Melco or any other improved NAS.

With regards to the pre-amp, wait for a pre-loved 252, while I can’t totally estimate if that would fit in with exchange, but even if it would be a bit more, the 252 would create a very significant upgrade. While of course the 282 would also be a good step up from your current setup.

And don’t forget on the relatively cheaper improvements on electricity - fuse and other stuff. As very often an investment here in the range of 150-200 gives you an immense benefit.

Posted on: 30 October 2018 by SimonPeterArnold
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Smh, what on earth is a ‘reclocking switch’......

An Ethernet access and Wifi each have their pros and cons, but overall there are generally more benefits in using Ethernet.

Segregating different Wifi SSIDs, but you would need to map different SSIDs to different subnet. User priority differentiation on  Wifi SSIDs can have benefits in mixed traffic scenarios, but generally if such considerations are prefereable then 802.11e is implemented, and I don’t believe Naim supports this protocol so the Wifi implementation would be rather basic in this regard.

He's referring to the overvpriced  Ethernet switch that BlackMorec mentioned.

Posted on: 30 October 2018 by SMH

Thanks simonpeterarnold you are correct I was referring to the “reclocking network switch the AQVox SE” mentioned in BlackMorec’s post

Posted on: 30 October 2018 by SMH

Thanks for adding your comments Bert I’m going to keep my eyes open for ex demo or pre-owned preamps.

Posted on: 01 November 2018 by Blackmorec
SimonPeterArnold posted:
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Smh, what on earth is a ‘reclocking switch’......

An Ethernet access and Wifi each have their pros and cons, but overall there are generally more benefits in using Ethernet.

Segregating different Wifi SSIDs, but you would need to map different SSIDs to different subnet. User priority differentiation on  Wifi SSIDs can have benefits in mixed traffic scenarios, but generally if such considerations are prefereable then 802.11e is implemented, and I don’t believe Naim supports this protocol so the Wifi implementation would be rather basic in this regard.

He's referring to the overvpriced  Ethernet switch that BlackMorec mentioned.

Hi SimonPeterArnold,

Overpriced compared to what? Other, much cheaper network switches; optimised-for-audio network switches with reclocking and ‘denoising’, or alternative upgrades like a new amplifier or power supply? 

Obviously, like any component an AQVoxSE will be system dependant, but in my system, the improvement when accompanied with a linear power supply to replace the standard wall wart was substantial....certainly in box upgrade territory and therefore fairly cheap for what it brought. Its price with an LPS is in line with other purpose built switches 

Each of the upgrades I mentioned brough me substantial and more important, fundamental changes that made the music sound more natural,  involving and inviting. There are 2 types of upgrades, those that bring improvements to things like frequency extremes and clarity that make an initial impact but don’t really change the level of enjoyment over the long term and those that seem to remove a barrier or limitation and lead to the music sounding increasingly realistic and less artificial. The latter upgrades are in my opinion far more important in that the listener involvement and enjoyment increases, whereas with the former upgrades, the listener seems to acclimatise to the changes and enjoyment levels remain more or less unchanged a few weeks after the upgrade. 

Initially I believed that digital signals were pretty much immune to deterioration and therefore corresponding improvement but experience proved me completely wrong.  Not only that but whereas amplifier upgrades typically brought more of everything musically speaking, network upgrades removed previously unidentified limitations and made for a fundamentally more enjoyable listening experience. 

If nothing else, anyone using an ISP router and wi-fi should do themselves a favour and get hold of a modern 3 band router like the TPLink Archer AC5400 or Netgear Nitehawk and set it up with the hi-fi on a dedicated 5GHz band. 

Posted on: 01 November 2018 by charlesphoto

Get a good Cisco Catalyst switch into the mix. Either a cheap older one, or the newest you can afford (I found a 2017 16 port 2960 1GB for $155 and it sounded better then my older $29 ones). No need to pay audiophile prices if going for a used one. Made to be bulletproof unlike the consumer switches. I also think with a good switch the cable doesn’t make as much difference. 

A better power supply for your Mac, or something like a Sonic Transporter or a NUC with ROCK and an inexpensive linear power supply (what I have) will be better off on the server end. I spent a lot of time on the network end of things and while each improvement is quite small, they all add up in the end and the NDX should be able to reveal them, if my DAC V1 could. 

 

Posted on: 01 November 2018 by Innocent Bystander
Blackmorec posted:

 

If nothing else, anyone using an ISP router and wi-fi should do themselves a favour and get hold of a modern 3 band router like the TPLink Archer AC5400 or Netgear Nitehawk and set it up with the hi-fi on a dedicated 5GHz band. 

Unless I have misunderstood this seems to be referring to wifi transmission, while It seems to be generally accepted that wired streaming is superior, and maybe in the pursuit of sound quality wifi will always place greater demands on equipment.

(Personally I favour a combined store-renderer where network simply doesn’t feature at all.)

Posted on: 01 November 2018 by Guinnless
Blackmorec posted

If nothing else, anyone using an ISP router and wi-fi should do themselves a favour and get hold of a modern 3 band router like the TPLink Archer AC5400 or Netgear Nitehawk and set it up with the hi-fi on a dedicated 5GHz band. 

How would 5GHz improve the sound quality ?

Posted on: 01 November 2018 by Blackmorec
Full bandwidth Guinnless posted:
Blackmorec posted

If nothing else, anyone using an ISP router and wi-fi should do themselves a favour and get hold of a modern 3 band router like the TPLink Archer AC5400 or Netgear Nitehawk and set it up with the hi-fi on a dedicated 5GHz band. 

How would 5GHz improve the sound quality ?

A tri-band router offers 1 x 2.4GHz and 2 x 5Ghz bands. A lot of your household stuff only supports 2.4GHz so the only band you can dedicate is 5Ghz. If you look at your ISP supplied router specs it likely shares bandwidth between all connected devices whereas with one of the 5Ghz bands on the AC5400 or Nitehawk routers I mentioned, the full bandwidth of a 5Ghz band can be dedicated to the hi-fi.

Not only does your streaming sound better but your user interface is more or less instantaneous...no waiting for album covers and meta data to load, no drop outs, pauses or buffering;  just a solid, completely reliable high speed internet link which sounds markedly superior to the standard ISP supplied router. 

Posted on: 01 November 2018 by Simon-in-Suffolk
SimonPeterArnold posted:
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Smh, what on earth is a ‘reclocking switch’......

An Ethernet access and Wifi each have their pros and cons, but overall there are generally more benefits in using Ethernet.

Segregating different Wifi SSIDs, but you would need to map different SSIDs to different subnet. User priority differentiation on  Wifi SSIDs can have benefits in mixed traffic scenarios, but generally if such considerations are prefereable then 802.11e is implemented, and I don’t believe Naim supports this protocol so the Wifi implementation would be rather basic in this regard.

He's referring to the overvpriced  Ethernet switch that BlackMorec mentioned.

But a reclocking switch is meaningless... ALL switches reclock... you might as well say an electrically powered switch.

Also to the point above 5GHz is as likely to improve sound quality as 2.4GHz with a Wifi access point other than in a legacy environment you may have a busier Wifi spectrum on 2.4GHz than 5GHz, ie there is necessarily no clear advantage SQ wise ... (also remember Wifi is not a router function, but many consumer broadband routers have a Wifi access point built in)... 

To really improve SQ in terms of less dropouts with a busy Wifi network one would need to support 802.11e WMM, to control interframe timing and Naim streamers and most consumer Wifi access points don’t support this. Another method is to to use overlapping low powered access points operating as an ESSID across both Wifi bands. This allows load balancing to allow optimum throughput. It’s what I use in SiS towers and I can concurrently stream audio and UHD video as well as other Wifi apps with no issue at all.

Posted on: 01 November 2018 by Guinnless
Blackmorec posted:
Full bandwidth Guinnless posted:
Blackmorec posted

If nothing else, anyone using an ISP router and wi-fi should do themselves a favour and get hold of a modern 3 band router like the TPLink Archer AC5400 or Netgear Nitehawk and set it up with the hi-fi on a dedicated 5GHz band. 

How would 5GHz improve the sound quality ?

A tri-band router offers 1 x 2.4GHz and 2 x 5Ghz bands. A lot of your household stuff only supports 2.4GHz so the only band you can dedicate is 5Ghz. If you look at your ISP supplied router specs it likely shares bandwidth between all connected devices whereas with one of the 5Ghz bands on the AC5400 or Nitehawk routers I mentioned, the full bandwidth of a 5Ghz band can be dedicated to the hi-fi.

Not only does your streaming sound better but your user interface is more or less instantaneous...no waiting for album covers and meta data to load, no drop outs, pauses or buffering;  just a solid, completely reliable high speed internet link which sounds markedly superior to the standard ISP supplied router. 

As with most users of Naim streamers the streamer is connected with Ethernet. The quality of the WiFi has no effect on SQ as the control point (Naim App) doesn't stream the music.

Posted on: 06 January 2019 by SMH

Thank you everyone for all your advice a couple of months ago, I have now replaced my supernait 2 and am the happy owner of a NAC282 & HICAPDR as a front end to my NAP250DR. I have also put an optic fiber link in between my router and my NDX 2, I used the ifi power supplies (that do active noise cancellation on the power) to drive the fiber optic transceivers to try and avoid reintroducing noise from a normal cheap switch mode power supply. I’m very happy with results and really enjoying my music.