Kudos Super 20a vs PMC 25 23

Posted by: Popeye on 05 November 2018

Hi all

Will be arraigning a demo of these two shortly. Looking for something that is likely to be less fussy with placement and good enough to warrant upgrades of black boxes over the years. 

Currently using NDX and Supernait2 both bare. 

Weakest link in my chain I believe to be is my current speakers, Kef R500’s. 

i like the speakers and there sound but the wife isn’t happy about there position in the room (way out from back wall and in her words “sat in the middle of the room”

many thanks

Posted on: 05 November 2018 by Polarbear

Both are excellent speakers, its a matter of listening to both and seeing which you prefer. No one can tell you which you should choose.

Posted on: 05 November 2018 by Popeye

Sorry, I wasn’t  posting as a what should I choose, I ment to actually ask what else is there that is similar and not fussy with placement and would be worth trying to hear. Similar money also

Posted on: 05 November 2018 by The Strat (Fender)

I have to have my speakers close to the wall and after extensive home demos - Neat, Focal, Dynaudio - only the S20s worked for me.  

Posted on: 05 November 2018 by Japtimscarlet

Russell K are front ported and work well close to a wall

Posted on: 06 November 2018 by AndyH

Auditioned these, and Spendor A7’s, with a friend at Billy Vee. He ended up buying the Spendor A7’s - I also preferred them to the Kudos and PMC.

The kit used was NDS, 252 and 300.

Posted on: 06 November 2018 by Rich 1

My PMC 20 24s are 10 inch (250mm) away from the back wall at the base. Very good compromise between sounds and esthetics. That's only in my room though, yours will of course sound different. Rich

Posted on: 06 November 2018 by Popeye

Thanks guys

on another note what are people’s opinions on buying ex demo speakers as opposed to new. 

Also ignoring the listening test is both the PMC 25 23 and kudos super 20 a good enough in the long term for future black box upgrades and what is the likely point in black boxes upgrades that the speakers will warrant upgrading again. 

Cheers

Posted on: 06 November 2018 by glasnaim

I think buying ex demo speakers is a no brainer, as long as they haven't been abused, you should get a healthy discount and the full manufacturers warranty plus someone has kindly run them in for you. 

I recently bought an ex demo set of PMC 25 23 and saved about £800 on list price.

The second part of your question is more difficult to evaluate, certainly should be good for the next upgrade but will let more knowledgeable members guide you on that one.

Posted on: 06 November 2018 by Popeye
glasnaim posted:

I think buying ex demo speakers is a no brainer, as long as they haven't been abused, you should get a healthy discount and the full manufacturers warranty plus someone has kindly run them in for you. 

I recently bought an ex demo set of PMC 25 23 and saved about £800 on list price.

The second part of your question is more difficult to evaluate, certainly should be good for the next upgrade but will let more knowledgeable members guide you on that one.

That’s my concern is how they have been run in, I have visions of being cranked up from the outset to see what they can do. 

Posted on: 06 November 2018 by glasnaim

I think if you buy from a reputable dealer this wouldn't be the case and you should be ok. In addition if you buy online you have 14 days under the consumer credit regulations to intimate your intention to return, with a further 14 days to actually return, so if your'e not happy with them send them back.

Posted on: 06 November 2018 by Mercky

You can certainly get great deals but I quite like having speakers from new and hearing them break in and improve over time, but you pay for that bit of luxury for sure 

Posted on: 06 November 2018 by sjbabbey

I’m currently running my Kudos S20 speakers with NDS PS555DR into 252 SCDR and NAP300DR and they will certainly not be embarassed by an upgrade to your current black boxes

Posted on: 07 November 2018 by Timo

I have PMC 25.23 -- and they aren't really fussy in my view. I am no expert but PMC's ATL is said to make placement easier; and this I can confirm from my experience. Neat with down-firing ports, for instance, didn't work in our lounge. 

Posted on: 07 November 2018 by glasnaim

I would agree with this, I have both the PMC 25.23 and the Neat SX1's, the Neat's are a good speaker but the PMC's are a wee bit more forgiving in terms of room and positioning.

Posted on: 07 November 2018 by hungryhalibut
Popeye posted:

Thanks guys

on another note what are people’s opinions on buying ex demo speakers as opposed to new. 

Also ignoring the listening test is both the PMC 25 23 and kudos super 20 a good enough in the long term for future black box upgrades and what is the likely point in black boxes upgrades that the speakers will warrant upgrading again. 

Cheers

Having owned the previous version of the PMCs, the twenty.23, I’d say that the S20 is the better speaker and that it is a lot more upgrade-proof. They are more pricey than the PMCs but there are a few ex demo or used ones at dealers. 

Posted on: 07 November 2018 by Gazza

I would add the ATC SCM 40, in the same ball park price wise as the Kudos. Heard them recently, sounded fine. As PB mentioned get yourself a good demo(s) and listen yourself.

Posted on: 07 November 2018 by MangoMonkey

The Super 20A is in an entire other class. The PMC 23 doesn't compete. 

I took  my Super 20 from a SN2 to a Nap250.2 to a Nap300, and am currently using it with a Nap500DR. I would say you're good until the Nap300 with the Super20s.

The PMC 23s, might be better served with a more powerful Bryston Amp - that's what PMC develops their speakers with.

Posted on: 08 November 2018 by madasafish

I recently heard Boenicke 8s in a pal's home demo (in place of his usual Super 20s). About 30cm from rear wall and with a bit of toe-in their scale and soundstage belies their diminutive and very agreeable appearance. Not cheap at £5.8k but very capable.

Posted on: 08 November 2018 by Popeye

So guys I have my first dealer demo of a few speakers at the weekend. 

I will be listening to...

PMC 25 23

Proac D20R

Spendor A6

Totem Sky Tower. 

Subject to me ears, can anyone advise if all of these speakers are actually an upgrade over and above my current Kef R500’s or are they more a sideways move?

Posted on: 08 November 2018 by Christopher_M
Popeye posted:
.....but the wife isn’t happy about there position in the room (way out from back wall and in her words “sat in the middle of the room”

Wait for a pair of SL2s.

Posted on: 08 November 2018 by Mercky

I thought the Spendor A6 was discontinued, A7 perhaps?

Posted on: 08 November 2018 by Popeye
Mercky posted:

I thought the Spendor A6 was discontinued, A7 perhaps?

Yes, sorry my mistake 

Posted on: 08 November 2018 by Mercky
Popeye posted:
Mercky posted:

I thought the Spendor A6 was discontinued, A7 perhaps?

Yes, sorry my mistake 

The A7’s are nice, I’m auditioning them tomorrow and hopefully getting a lend from my dealer for a few days to see how they stack up against my existing A4’s. Ironically I auditioned your Kef R500’s last year along with the pmc 25.23’s, thought the pmcs were a little bright, liked the 500’s but eventually went for the A4’s in the end 

Posted on: 08 November 2018 by Timo
Mercky posted:
Popeye posted:
Mercky posted:

I thought the Spendor A6 was discontinued, A7 perhaps?

Yes, sorry my mistake 

 the pmc 25.23’s, thought the pmcs were a little bright.

I thought the same in the dealer’s demo room. I am glad I gave them a chance at home — they worked beautifully in our old lounge. I hope the magic is still there when they get unpacked in the new house....

Posted on: 08 November 2018 by SamClaus
hungryhalibut posted:
Popeye posted:

Thanks guys

on another note what are people’s opinions on buying ex demo speakers as opposed to new. 

Also ignoring the listening test is both the PMC 25 23 and kudos super 20 a good enough in the long term for future black box upgrades and what is the likely point in black boxes upgrades that the speakers will warrant upgrading again. 

Cheers

Having owned the previous version of the PMCs, the twenty.23, I’d say that the S20 is the better speaker and that it is a lot more upgrade-proof. They are more pricey than the PMCs but there are a few ex demo or used ones at dealers. 

Hardly surprising. I 'm aware price isn't everything, but the excellent Kudos are the same price as the PMC 25.24 (haven't heard those, so can't judge).