Best UPnP/DLNA experience

Posted by: Curve on 02 December 2018

I'm having some challenges with getting the best out of my NDX and I've not seen anything that quite gets to the bottom of this on the forums, so I'd appreciate learning from other's experience.

I have a Synology NAS serving my FLAC music files, and I've tried both Synology Media Server and Plex Media Server on the NAS.

I have some primary and secondary requirements:

Primary - Rapid catalogue access, gapless playback

Secondary - Artist and album art, file seek (e.g. fast fwd, rewind within track)

I use Android for my 'client', either on tablet or phone, and as can be readily seen on Google Play, the Naim app is causing users quite a few issues.  Hopefully it will improve soon, but I find it both slow to find UPnP servers, and buggy, the folder list in the app jumps around and items overlap each other on my Samsung Galaxy S9.

This led me to explore other client apps, but whilst DS Audio, BubbleUPnP and HiFi Cast all meet my rapid catalogue access requirement, both caching album details much more effectively than the Naim app (and displaying 'artist art' in the case of the latter two ,when accessing the Plex media server), none of them provide gapless playback on the NDX.

I'm at a bit of a dead end right now.  I'm using the Naim app to gain gapless playback, but am having to put up with the slow catalogue access and buggy display rendering.  Does anyone have good experience with using an alternative client app, or improving the performance of the Naim app in listing music catalogues over UPnP?

Posted on: 02 December 2018 by David Hendon

You won’t want to hear this, but the Naim IOS app is universally reckoned to be way better than the Naim android app and your best bet may be picking up a pre-loved iPad for music control duties.

best

David

Posted on: 02 December 2018 by Guinnless

Hi CURVE,

My ND5XS, QNAP/Asset offers all of your Primary and Secondary requirements. I have zero issues with discovery or catalogue access with the Naim App. Gapless playback works perfectly.     My Naim App runs on Android.

  • Ditch Plex - it's OK for films and TV but absolutely hopeless for music.  I and many others use "Asset"
  • Ensure your NDX is on the latest firmware - https://www.naimaudio.com/updates
  • Is your network up to scratch - NDX wired? 
  • Don't use any Wifi extenders, bridges etc. 
Posted on: 02 December 2018 by Hmack

I agree with DH that the Naim IOS app is better than the Android equivalent. 

However, I would firstly recommend that you move away from the Synology Media and Plex servers you have been using on your Synology NAS, and that you install minimserver which should be available as an installation package on your Synology NAS if it Is a relatively recent model. I had dreadful problems with catalogue access and album art in particular when I used the Synology Media server. This affected both my Naim and Linn devices and apps. These problems disappeared when I switched to minimserver. 

Posted on: 02 December 2018 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Yep, agree with Dave.. the iOS app is rock solid and quick... and use a rock solid media server like Asset, Minimserver, ReadyDLNA, Naim etc..

Posted on: 02 December 2018 by Bart
Guinnless posted:

Hi CURVE,

My ND5XS, QNAP/Asset offers all of your Primary and Secondary requirements. I have zero issues with discovery or catalogue access with the Naim App. Gapless playback works perfectly.     My Naim App runs on Android.

  • Ditch Plex - it's OK for films and TV but absolutely hopeless for music.  I and many others use "Asset"
  • Ensure your NDX is on the latest firmware - https://www.naimaudio.com/updates
  • Is your network up to scratch - NDX wired? 
  • Don't use any Wifi extenders, bridges etc. 

Do the above AND move to the iOS app (sorry but it's true it's really a lot better than on Android).

Plan C (ios being Plan A) is to move to Roon (but your NDX isn't inherently Roon compatible so for NDX you'll need add'l hardware).

Posted on: 02 December 2018 by Mike-B

I have NDX,  iPad (iOS) & Synology.  I’m far from home until the end of this week & this is all from memory,  so I might struggle if you have a secondary question.  

The Synology media servers you are using are the causes of both your ‘primary’  & ‘secondary’ issues.   I don’t use the Android app but I hear it’s not as good as the iOS app,   but your problems I recognise as the same as I’ve seen with iOS.

Synologies “Media Server” is a bit slow & rubbish at handling any of the art browsing trees.   I only used ‘Folder View’ when I used it, which although is as fast as any UPnP, no art is shown until you open the album.    I only have WAV & DSD so can’t comment on FLAC & gapless,  but if you are transcoding FLAC,  I do know it does transcode gapless, it also downsamples to 16-bit

Plex, as Guinnless points out  is video software.

Your solution is to uninstall Plex & Media Server and to install Minimserver that’s included in the Synology Package Center,  it’s excellent software & will fix all your problems.  The only problem is it also needs the Java package installed & also Minim Watch on your laptop or PC/Mac.   TBH it’s a tiny bit of a faff to set up but well worth it.

Also over the next weeks look out for the release of Asset UPnP for Synology.  I’m using it’s beta software at the moment,  east to install & better than Minim 

Posted on: 02 December 2018 by Curve

Thanks for the input everyone, I'll install minimserver and see where I get to.

I can't help but think Naim have missed a bit of a trick on the app/server/streamer solution they've architected.  I have another streaming device at almost a tenth of the price that has a fantastic android app and responds immediately, with no delays looking for a UPnP source...  The NDX does of course sound way better though! 

Posted on: 02 December 2018 by Pev

The Naim app works fine for me on Android using my Lenovo Yoga 3 tablet... but Roon is better. It seems to me there are just as many issues on Ios as Android.

Posted on: 02 December 2018 by Mike-B
additional info:  Mike-B posted:

...........     I only have WAV & DSD so can’t comment on FLAC & gapless,  but if you are transcoding FLAC,  I do know it does transcode gapless, it also downsamples to 16-bit 

Big WHOOPS typo,    prof reeding not dun proper.   SORRY  

It should read as:   I do know Media Server UPnP software DOES NOT play transcoded gapless,  it also downsamples to 16-bit.

additional info:   It does play  gapless WAV perfectly,   I’m not 100% sure  about straight FLAC,   but if you are loading Minimserver,  you will have no more problems transcoding or not.  

You should try transcoding whatever, many forumites say straight WAV & transcoded FLAC to WAV sounds better,  my NDX for sure was better with WAV when I experimented.

Posted on: 02 December 2018 by Curve

A further update...

It transpires that my performance issues were at least partially mesh network related.  UPnP discovery was vastly improved by moving my Synology to the same router as the NDX, a Netgear Orbi.

The Synology had previously been plugged into a satellite, for other non-music related reasons, on my network.  A forum search revealed that other Orbi users had had similar issues, and managed to fix UPnP communication with a satellite by disabling 'enable daisy chain topology' in the Orbi router advanced wireless settings.

This has fixed my problems with Synology Media Server connectivity.  Unfortunately Minimserver discovery is a little more flakey whether plugged into the main router or the satellite.  Perhaps I'll have more luck with Asset when it arrives.

Thanks all for your assistance.

Posted on: 02 December 2018 by NickSeattle

I think Asset is a very good product; but in my experience “flakiness” in my system has never turned out to be MinimServer’s fault, nor Naim’s; it always turns out to be an issue with the network.

For example, lately my networked security cameras went offline for a period of months; coincidentally, my network became generally flakey.  Finally had a security engineer in — he replaced one faulty camera-network interface, and resumed a stalled firmware update on the other interface, both of which are wired to the LAN; now all is better than ever.

Just in time!  I was about ready to abandon Naim for a Sonos, Bose or Bluetooth system.  (OK, not really; I knew it was the network, but did not connect the dots re the cameras spoiling the whole network until after the service call.)

Good luck.

Nick

Posted on: 02 December 2018 by ChrisSU
Pev posted:

The Naim app works fine for me on Android using my Lenovo Yoga 3 tablet... but Roon is better. It seems to me there are just as many issues on Ios as Android.

I wonder if Android issues with the app vary depending on the hardware running them? A while ago I had and Android device, and ran several production and beta versions of the Naim app on it. At no point did I feel it was worse than the iOS app.

Posted on: 02 December 2018 by feeling_zen
ChrisSU posted:
Pev posted:

The Naim app works fine for me on Android using my Lenovo Yoga 3 tablet... but Roon is better. It seems to me there are just as many issues on Ios as Android.

I wonder if Android issues with the app vary depending on the hardware running them? A while ago I had and Android device, and ran several production and beta versions of the Naim app on it. At no point did I feel it was worse than the iOS app.

Absolutely. I have 4 Naim apps running. One on the main system with a dedicated iPod touch as the handset. Flawless most of the time.

Another on an Android 4.4.1 device which is an old phone I repurposed for the remote in the office Naim system. Utter crap. Missing Rovi aside, it blatantly refuses to navigate correctly back out of things and generally needs constant quitting and restarting. If you leave it open, it can cause some interesting playback problems too (like playing 1 second of the next track only to give up and start the previous track again, play another second and realise it is the wrong track and so on in an endless loop). I'd like to put it down to the Android version being so much older than the Naim app but sadly, I was using the Naim app back when Android 4.4.1 was brand new and it never worked right then either.

Another on an Android 8.0 phone which has it's own set of problems like sometimes not being able to find rooms 30 seconds after it was working fine. Restart the app, it finds them long enough to cue up an album for playback but wait too long and it will lose connectivity again. It's the only device to pull this nonsense on me but as I only use it when I am too lazy to get either of the other two from wherever I left them I don't worry about it too much.

On the other hand, my wife has a newish iPad and it is the worst of all them. But it has bigger problems than the Naim app. 

The point I am making it is that the device plays a large role in the experience and not all Android devices have the same problems, nor do all iOS devices.

I also have a Sony TV app and Denon AV system app on the same iPod touch and they are more or less okay but their responsiveness is appalling. 

Posted on: 03 December 2018 by antony d

sorry late to this one - purchased NDX in 2014 with QNAP NAS, tried using internet plugs which were OK but not great, also I was then using Twonkey

the BEST £500 I have spent since then on my system

  • I got a local cabelling company to direct wire my system from front room upstairs through top of garage into music room(down stairs and rear of house)
  • IT provider BT into house  > router (BTHome Hub)  > switch (Cisco)  > NAS > NDX - full signal at NDX 100 mbs
  • moved over to Asset from Twonkey as soon QNAP sorted
  • now Asset transcodes FLAC to WAV on NDX
  • very happy with outcome
  • only use the QNAP for music to be honest
Posted on: 03 December 2018 by Bart
ChrisSU posted:
Pev posted:

The Naim app works fine for me on Android using my Lenovo Yoga 3 tablet... but Roon is better. It seems to me there are just as many issues on Ios as Android.

I wonder if Android issues with the app vary depending on the hardware running them? A while ago I had and Android device, and ran several production and beta versions of the Naim app on it. At no point did I feel it was worse than the iOS app.

This is a major difference between Android and iOS.