I am confused: the bare ND5XS2 seems to beat ND5XS2 + nDAC

Well only your ears should be the judge. My only experience of the ND5XS2 was with the forum at HQ in April this year. The demo started with music via 272/250, we then switched to the new ND5XS2 with a Supernait. It was better able to resolve some music, that was not very likeable to my ears. It’s very capable in the right system.

M@rtin posted:

I ordered an ND5XS2 in September without opportunity to listen to it before. I got it this week, but here is short background description before I try to describe my listening impressions of ND5XS2.

CD5XS has been my main source since 2009 completed with nDAC 2010. But the last five years we used an iPad with Spotify connected with a cable directly to the nDAC most of the time, since we are consuming a lot of music. But of course the sound was not good enough with that solution so one year ago we changed from Spotify to Tidal. We got a better sound but still far away from the CD5XS as transport to the nDAC. So I bought an Arcam rplay as a streaming transport to the nDAC. The sound quality with rplay to nDAC compared to the iPad with cable to nDAC was much better, but still the sound from CD5XS to nDAC was better in many ways. This spring I decided to get a Naim streamer as transport to my nDAC that was at least as good as my CD5XS. When I visited naimaudio.com I saw they had new streamers in their pipeline. As I wrote above I ordered an ND5XS2 in September without an opportunity to listen to it before (I did the same with my CD5XS I had only heard CD5X before and some more CD-players in that price range).

When I came home for a couple days ago with the ND5XS2 I connected it into the nDAC with an DC1 cable. After only 30 seconds listing it was obvious how the sound quality in many different aspects was better than the one from the CD5XS. The resolution was really better, the whole sound was so airy. In perspective to ND5XS2 the CD5XS sound is more strained. This variant comprised both the CD5XS and ND5XS2 digital transports to the nDAC.

After one day of listening I connected ND5XS2 directly to my amplifier. My assumption was that I would get a worse sound compared to when it was connected via the nDAC. But both my wife and I thought the sound was better with a bare ND5XS2, it is not a big difference but the bare sound was a bit more direct, the resolution was a little better and the sound was more airy. My thesis has been proved wrong!

My conclusion is that ND5XS2 is a really good product for the price it has!

It is hard for me to realize that I won’t be using the nDAC with the legendary DAC chips Burr-Brown PCM1704. The ND5XS2 have same DAC chip as in the NDX (Burr-Brown PCM1791) but definitely not as cool as PCM1704

What amplification do you have?

i have an ND5XS 2 on order (hope to get it before Xmas) to complement my 152/155/FC XS

Have you tried CD5XS into ND5XS 2?

Good to read these positive reviews though.

M

I have Nait XS (2009 version) with a power supply.

I have not tried with the CD5XS as traded for the ND5XS2.

/Martin

Could be a few reasons why you have found what you have.

The nd digital output is of better quality than the cdp, so you could be hearing the DC1. I found it good but not excellent with my Ndac.  With your description of slightly shut in with a loss of detail similar to  my finding with this cable.   It could be worth investigating other BNC digital cables.

The voicing of the new nd could be more synergistic with your XS amp and speakers. Getting the best out of them and your preferences.  The Ndac is very neutral in the grand scheme of things. A change up to one of the classic pre and power might change those preferences.

Could be that the new nd is just simply better, no matter what system it found itself in.   

There were many who preferred the original NDX+XPSdr to an NDX+nDAC also. So I'd not get too hung up on it.

Your real test will be whether the CD5xs sounds better into the ND5xs2 than the nDAC. Or at least good enough to justify letting go of a box.

I must say I'm not that surprised.  I think the modern streamers will have been optimised to work with their own DACs and output stages, I will surely be corrected, but I think external DACs (from Naim anyway) will not bring much to the party these days.  I honestly think the standalone streamers are designed as standalone sources to connect to a pre-amp (with or without their dedicated PSUs).

Or of course the latest streamers being optimised as high quality digital transports... though one Naim employee I spoke to didn’t quite understand, with a smile on his face, why they put a transport output on the ND555.

The ND5XS2 is a great player and transport, and I was also told my Naim with some pride , a lot of effort had gone in to the design so as to strip it down and optimise it so as to provide the best performance they could for the budget.. hence why the removal of the display.

M@rtin posted:

I ordered an ND5XS2 in September without opportunity to listen to it before. I got it this week, but here is short background description before I try to describe my listening impressions of ND5XS2.

CD5XS has been my main source since 2009 completed with nDAC 2010. But the last five years we used an iPad with Spotify connected with a cable directly to the nDAC most of the time, since we are consuming a lot of music. But of course the sound was not good enough with that solution so one year ago we changed from Spotify to Tidal. We got a better sound but still far away from the CD5XS as transport to the nDAC. So I bought an Arcam rplay as a streaming transport to the nDAC. The sound quality with rplay to nDAC compared to the iPad with cable to nDAC was much better, but still the sound from CD5XS to nDAC was better in many ways. This spring I decided to get a Naim streamer as transport to my nDAC that was at least as good as my CD5XS. When I visited naimaudio.com I saw they had new streamers in their pipeline. As I wrote above I ordered an ND5XS2 in September without an opportunity to listen to it before (I did the same with my CD5XS I had only heard CD5X before and some more CD-players in that price range).

When I came home for a couple days ago with the ND5XS2 I connected it into the nDAC with an DC1 cable. After only 30 seconds listing it was obvious how the sound quality in many different aspects was better than the one from the CD5XS. The resolution was really better, the whole sound was so airy. In perspective to ND5XS2 the CD5XS sound is more strained. This variant comprised both the CD5XS and ND5XS2 digital transports to the nDAC.

After one day of listening I connected ND5XS2 directly to my amplifier. My assumption was that I would get a worse sound compared to when it was connected via the nDAC. But both my wife and I thought the sound was better with a bare ND5XS2, it is not a big difference but the bare sound was a bit more direct, the resolution was a little better and the sound was more airy. My thesis has been proved wrong!

My conclusion is that ND5XS2 is a really good product for the price it has!

It is hard for me to realize that I won’t be using the nDAC with the legendary DAC chips Burr-Brown PCM1704. The ND5XS2 have same DAC chip as in the NDX (Burr-Brown PCM1791) but definitely not as cool as PCM1704

Hi,

for what it's worth, I am not surprised at all. First, I demoed the ND5 XS2 at home and if it were not for my invincible reluctancy to put music on a computer, I'd have bought it. It is very good and there is no reason to doubt it benefits from the complete rewrite of the streaming platform that Naim has developed for its last generation of ND**s. People here shifts from newer is better to older is better according with digestion it seems, or so.

Second, I am a steady non-believer in outboard DACs. I have never found one better on any piece of gear than the bare piece of gear itself. To be benevolent, a Naim N-DAC adds – at a cost! – a hint of warmth and some more 3D. As for the legendary 1704 K, it is shared by a number of other Naim sources, and people around the world still think it is perhaps the best sounding conventional DAC chip available. But time passes.

Enjoy your beautiful, display-less, unassuming musical new toy.

Max 

BTW, when I had my 2003 CDX2 completely rebuilt to late 2017 specs (making it a CDX2.2 – or, to be precise (and I hope humorous) – a CDX2.1.5, since the serial and the transformer remained the same), I gladly gave up the digital out. I still have to hear an external DAC which adds real benefit to a well implemented, serious onboard chip. And please, anyone keep their erections about the Chord Hugo for themselves.

M.

Massimo Bertola posted:

Hi,

for what it's worth, I am not surprised at all. First, I demoed the ND5 XS2 at home and if it were not for my invincible reluctancy to put music on a computer, I'd have bought it. It is very good and there is no reason to doubt it benefits from the complete rewrite of the streaming platform that Naim has developed for its last generation of ND**s. People here shifts from newer is better to older is better according with digestion it seems, or so.

Second, I am a steady non-believer in outboard DACs. I have never found one better on any piece of gear than the bare piece of gear itself. To be benevolent, a Naim N-DAC adds – at a cost! – a hint of warmth and some more 3D. As for the legendary 1704 K, it is shared by a number of other Naim sources, and people around the world still think it is perhaps the best sounding conventional DAC chip available. But time passes.

Enjoy your beautiful, display-less, unassuming musical new toy.

Max 

Unless you only listen to analogue recordings on vinyl you already listen to computer based audio.

The nDAC adds scale, resolution and an more analogue 'sound'.  Warmth? Err not that I have experienced.  The new streamers are clearly going to be better and Naim themselves have indicated that the NDX2 would beat an nDAC even with an external PSU.

Obviously from an engineering and ultimately SQ point there are many advantages to a separate decoupled DAC and analogue stage... there are some disadvantages too. 

However the CDX2 has a wonderful puposebuilt for CD DSP chipset, as well as a rather well implemented traditional PCM1704K DAC chipset configuration and very Naim like analogue stage.. that really gives the CDX2 a wonderful character and distinctive sound.. effectively it’s DAC implementation, although not the most neutral or transparent, gives a wonderful quality. In my view if you weren’t going to use it then probably not much point in having a CDX2.

I love my CDX2.. and thank goodness we have those NAC inputs to allow us to enjoy our various sources and their distinctive separate characters...

Glad to hear you like the new streamer. I've used Naim DAC as my main source for seven years now and still going strong. Things might change if I decide to go active ATC route soon, but still only considering about it. Anyway I've done an extensive comparison with nDAC and NDX few years back (without extrenal PSU's). What I found out was that NDX had extremely fun and engaging sound but Naim DAC did things more correctly to my ears. Keywords for NDX would be fun, aggressive, forward while for Naim DAC: smoother, more resolution, deeper and more dynamic, more enjoyable in a long run. NDX actually gave me listening fatigue with longer listening. Too bad I didn't fount this out until I had bought the unit. 

Trying to say that after a while, do plug Naim DAC in the system again just to see how it sounds later on. I made hasty decisions with NDX and lost few hundred euros in the process. Do not sell Naim DAC too quickly. Also as Tobyjug wrote earlier, BNC cable actually does make a difference. I used DC1 for years but switched it to a much cheaper BJC digital cable after I had compared them for few weeks in my system. You could say that difference between DC1 and BJC cable is quite similar than what I described of NDX vs Naim DAC.

One other thing to be aware of; when comparing any Naim digital source, make sure only one is connected to the preamp at any one time, or else ensure the signal earths are correctly configured on DAC, streamer etc..

Sureky you mean that only one source should have earth set to chassis Richard. Having to have only one connected at a time would be more than a quirk but a massive design flaw.

Richard has a point. I tried to connect a DVD5 to my 552 which also had inputs from ND555 and a turntable. I couldn’t get the system to sound satisfactory from all sources with both digital players connected by hilines, no matter whether the ND was set to floating or default and which order the plugs were on my power block. It might be a peculiarity of my block’s chained connections but signal earth needs to be to the first socket or the coherence of all sorces suffers, putting the DVD5 there covered that and the turntable still sounded right but the ND555 lost out to the extent where they were indistinguishable playing the same John Martyn CD, setting the ND to chassis and connecting it to that first socket, as soon as the hiline from the DVD5 touched the preamp socket I could hear the sound from the ND flatten and loose its subtlety, floating the ND and leaving the DVD5 connected further down the block and all sources lost timing and coherence. Digital from DVD to ND is the only way to connect it in my system that doesn’t upset it. Maybe a star earthed block would be the answer but I tried a Musicworks Ultra and preferred my home made alternative. 

You should only have one source with the signal ground connected to earth. Typically this is a NAim CD player. Other Naim sources have switchable signal grounds, in which case set to float.

M@rtin

Like you I enjoyed a CD5XS and nDAC for several years.  They made a particularly fine-sounding combination, which some (me included) even preferred to a bare CDX2.  But the ND5XS2 is much newer than both of these boxes, so I am not too surprised at your findings.  By all accounts Naim have really hit the mark with the ND5XS2 which is looking as if it might offer the best VFM streamer in the range.  Go with your ears, but I agree with Patu that, once the new component has burned in it would be worth plugging the DAC back in to see if your initial impressions are confirmed.

Roger

Hi Richard

Sorry to hi-jack the topic but relevant to streamer SQ. I now have a 552 and ND555 and I'm not sure what you mean when talking about signal ground connected to earth. Im in the US and have only the 1 source for now connected to HDD input on the 552 which is the 4th from the right, the mute button depressed on the lower record bank of 552 and signal ground set to default on the ND. Is this the optimal set-up?

thanks

I had a similar experience with an NDX running into the DAC V1 to power amp.  When I replaced the DAC V1 with a passive auto transformer and used the DAC/anolog outs from the NDX, the sound opened up immensely.  

Bailyhill

Guinnless posted:

The nDAC adds scale, resolution and an more analogue 'sound'.  Warmth? Err not that I have experienced.

It's your ears against mine.... And, to quote the unforgettable Inspector Callahan, 'Opinions are like a**holes: everybody has one'.

Enjoy!

M

jsaudio posted:

Hi Richard

Sorry to hi-jack the topic but relevant to streamer SQ. I now have a 552 and ND555 and I'm not sure what you mean when talking about signal ground connected to earth. Im in the US and have only the 1 source for now connected to HDD input on the 552 which is the 4th from the right, the mute button depressed on the lower record bank of 552 and signal ground set to default on the ND. Is this the optimal set-up?

thanks

As it's a Naim system and you are using  single Naim source then yes, set the signal ground switch to the default setting.

Hi JS Audio-

If your stereo is not controlled by some form of programmable remote, I would encourage you to experiment with using the Tuner input on your pre-amp for your ND 555.    This input on most Naim pre-amps is somewhat better sounding than the others.    It is not a massive difference either way, but it can be a bit cleaner and more coherent sounding in a higher resolution system such as yours.

Good luck,

Bruce

Patu posted:

Glad to hear you like the new streamer. I've used Naim DAC as my main source for seven years now and still going strong. Things might change if I decide to go active ATC route soon, but still only considering about it. Anyway I've done an extensive comparison with nDAC and NDX few years back (without extrenal PSU's). What I found out was that NDX had extremely fun and engaging sound but Naim DAC did things more correctly to my ears. Keywords for NDX would be fun, aggressive, forward while for Naim DAC: smoother, more resolution, deeper and more dynamic, more enjoyable in a long run. NDX actually gave me listening fatigue with longer listening. Too bad I didn't fount this out until I had bought the unit. 

Trying to say that after a while, do plug Naim DAC in the system again just to see how it sounds later on. I made hasty decisions with NDX and lost few hundred euros in the process. Do not sell Naim DAC too quickly. Also as Tobyjug wrote earlier, BNC cable actually does make a difference. I used DC1 for years but switched it to a much cheaper BJC digital cable after I had compared them for few weeks in my system. You could say that difference between DC1 and BJC cable is quite similar than what I described of NDX vs Naim DAC.

That is a good point! I will keep my nDAC and plug it in after a while. I also have another BNC but I only use it from the rplay to the nDAC, I’m going to try that one to.

Peakman posted:

M@rtin

Like you I enjoyed a CD5XS and nDAC for several years.  They made a particularly fine-sounding combination, which some (me included) even preferred to a bare CDX2.  But the ND5XS2 is much newer than both of these boxes, so I am not too surprised at your findings.  By all accounts Naim have really hit the mark with the ND5XS2 which is looking as if it might offer the best VFM streamer in the range.  Go with your ears, but I agree with Patu that, once the new component has burned in it would be worth plugging the DAC back in to see if your initial impressions are confirmed.

Roger

That is a good point! I will keep my nDAC and plug it in after a while.

/Martin

I switched over all cables in my system and removed all other electrical devices except my HiFi stuff from the socket close to the HiFi-system. So now the HiFi is on own fuse (13 A) in the switchboard. 

I have done more tests today with only moving the Hi-Line between the ND5XS2 and the nDAC (The BNC was removed when I played with the bare streamer. I do not have other devices connected to my Nait except the power supply. 

My impression from the day when I have done the comparison between ND5XS2 and nDAC is: 

The sound from the ND5 is clearer (but not much) and also a little bit nasal but not in a bad context. I also think that the timing is better with the bare ND5. With the ND5 connected to the nDAC I got some deeper bass and overall more damped /darker sound (but not in a bad context), someone could probably say more like a vinyl sound. My feeling when I’m listening to a couple of songs without changing back and forth and not focusing on specific details is that the bare ND5 feels more right. 

I have to say that the difference between the bare ND5XS2 and ND5XS2+ nDAC is quite small compared to the difference between a bare CD5XS and CD5XS + nDAC as I remember.