Allowed Metadata Edits

Posted by: Echolane on 12 December 2018

am finding myself a stickler for convention when dealing with metadata.  Can I get into trouble by overriding the metadata assigned  for Title or Artist?

For example, I have a lot of opera and classical CDs.  The metadata assigned for Title can vary.  I typically see these variations assigned:

Puccini: Madame Butterfly

Giacomo Puccini: Madame Butterfly

Madame Butterfly

i have edited all my Titles  to follow the first example: Composer Last Name: Title

Similarly, there is often variation in the way names are annotated (or not) when there is an accent mark.  Many of my favorite singers are born elsewhere and their names sometimes have accent marks.  Sometimes the metadata will use their names with the accent in place and sometimes not.  I am editing their names with the accent in place,

For example: I have standardized on Jussi BjŲrling instead of Jussi Bjorling.  Similarly, I use PlŠcido Domingo instead of Placido Domingo or Josť Carreras instead of Jose Carreras.

Again, will I cause any problems by overriding the assigned metadata in these ways?  Or will I waste my time because Naim will override me?  And what if I miss editing a name and the accent is missing; does that mean I need to search for an artist both ways?

 

Posted on: 12 December 2018 by Bart

Are you referring to files stored on a Core? Or on a nas?

Posted on: 12 December 2018 by Echolane

Stored in the Naim Uniti Core.

Posted on: 13 December 2018 by David Hendon

No you wonít get into trouble and Naim wonít override you, but I never find searching on anything is predictable and I tend to use album view and scroll to the right place. I also use composer last name followed by musical work name as the album title for classical. For non-classical I tend to use the actual album name.

best

David

Posted on: 13 December 2018 by Echolane

That is reassuring!  Thank you, David.  

I will continue refining my metadata then.  Since search is unpredictable, I too use Album scroll to find my music.  Scrolling is very effective now for finding classical music because I can scroll directly to the ďPĒs for Puccini, or to the ďSĒs for Strauss, etc

But what If I want to listen to one of my 25 CDs by artist, Jussi Bjorling.  I canít possibly remember all the titles and scroll directly to the one I want, and a search on artist mysteriously (and frustratingly) never returns all the albums so I wind up scrolling through most of my 500+ albums, hoping to quickly spot the one Iím looking for.  That rarely happens quickly, so Iíve been considering using the same convention for single artist albums as I use for classical:

   Artist: Title

That will call for a lot of editing so I wonder if itís worth it.  Which brings me to the question, Why is search on artist so unpredictable?  It almost never returns all the albums associated with an artist.  I have four albums of Ottmar Liebert.  Searching on his name returns two albums and two tracks, not four albums.  And not the one I am looking for!  Itís as though that album doesnít exist.  Very frustrating.  If Google can manage to search so effectively, why canít Naim??

  

Posted on: 13 December 2018 by nbpf
Echolane posted:

am finding myself a stickler for convention when dealing with metadata.  Can I get into trouble by overriding the metadata assigned  for Title or Artist?

For example, I have a lot of opera and classical CDs.  The metadata assigned for Title can vary.  I typically see these variations assigned:

Puccini: Madame Butterfly

Giacomo Puccini: Madame Butterfly

Madame Butterfly

i have edited all my Titles  to follow the first example: Composer Last Name: Title

Similarly, there is often variation in the way names are annotated (or not) when there is an accent mark.  Many of my favorite singers are born elsewhere and their names sometimes have accent marks.  Sometimes the metadata will use their names with the accent in place and sometimes not.  I am editing their names with the accent in place,

For example: I have standardized on Jussi BjŲrling instead of Jussi Bjorling.  Similarly, I use PlŠcido Domingo instead of Placido Domingo or Josť Carreras instead of Jose Carreras.

Again, will I cause any problems by overriding the assigned metadata in these ways?  Or will I waste my time because Naim will override me?  And what if I miss editing a name and the accent is missing; does that mean I need to search for an artist both ways.

Naming conventions can be very useful but should not be motivated by the weaknesses of a specific server.

Today you use the Core's UPnP server which offers very poor support for classifying and browsing classical music, tomorrow you might adopt another server. Servers come and go but naming conventions should be rock solid and server independent.

Tag your files according to what matters to you and using the language and the accents that you like, not according to what matters to Naim or to other people. Have a look at the documentation of MinimServer. It is a very comprehensive document that can provides you with a good basis for reasoning about how to organize your music collection. MinimServer itself is a very simple and flexible tool. I very often search my classical music simply by

  composer > work > album.

More rarely by

  period > composer > work,

  conductor > ensemble > album,

  form > composer > album

and very rarely by

  artist > ...

This works flawlessly with MinimServer because I have taken care of populating, amomg others, "work", "period", "form" and "ensemble" indexes for my entire collection.

In the beginning I used to scroll through the album view (with albums named according to your convention) but this is very inefficient and, for large collections, unacceptable. If this had to be the way to interact with a music collection in a streaming solution, I would had preferred to stay with my old CDs. 

Have a look at MinimServer and Asset and give them a try: if you are interested in classical music there is nothing better than MinimServer in my view and certainly no point in using the Core's internal server. You can still keep all your files on the Core and have them served by MinimServer running on a Raspberry Pi in your LAN.

Posted on: 13 December 2018 by Echolane

Naming conventions can be very useful but should not be motivated by the weaknesses of a specific server.

Thank you!  I have been so afraid to tamper with what Naim does, even when itís wrong.

You can still keep all your files on the Core and have them served by MinimServer running on a Raspberry Pi in your LAN.

I am continually discovering what a complete novice to streaming I am.  I had no idea I could choose another music manager like MinimServer and point it to my Uniti Core and use it instead of the Naim app.  That opens up a very large window of possibilities!  Does that mean I could do the same thing with Roon?  Point it to my Naim Uniti Core and have it direct my ripped music library on the Core?  If so, you have unintentionally (and gratefully) saved me a great deal of money because I was about to spend money on a Sonic Transporter with internal SSD and Roon preinstalled to replace the Naim Uniti Core.  I thought moving to Roon was a way to better manage my music collection (90% opera and classical).  Thatís in spite of some information that Roon does not manage classical music very well either.  The reason I have wanted to move to Roon is itís capability of streaming to multiple stereo systems simultaneously and independently.  I have four Roon Ready stereo music systems in my small house.  But it seems I need to look into MinimServer.

I would MUCH appreciate a brief tutorial on how to use the Raspberry pi so I could try MinimServer.  I know itís a tiny computer, I know itís frequently used by music streamers, but somehow itís all I can do to understand that my new DAC is the necessary interface between the Naim Uniti Core and my very conventional analog stereo system.  I canít wrap my mind around how I can use a Raspberry pi or how to make use of its possibilities, or even where I would cable it in to my system.

The present hardware is cabled together like this:

Naim Uniti Core > Audio Alchemy DDP-1 DAC + PS-5 LPS > Tube Amp & Speakers

 

Posted on: 13 December 2018 by nbpf
Echolane posted:

Naming conventions can be very useful but should not be motivated by the weaknesses of a specific server.

Thank you!  I have been so afraid to tamper with what Naim does, even when itís wrong.

You can still keep all your files on the Core and have them served by MinimServer running on a Raspberry Pi in your LAN.

I am continually discovering what a complete novice to streaming I am.  I had no idea I could choose another music manager like MinimServer and point it to my Uniti Core and use it instead of the Naim app.  That opens up a very large window of possibilities!  Does that mean I could do the same thing with Roon?  Point it to my Naim Uniti Core and have it direct my ripped music library on the Core?  If so, you have unintentionally (and gratefully) saved me a great deal of money because I was about to spend money on a Sonic Transporter with internal SSD and Roon preinstalled to replace the Naim Uniti Core.  I thought moving to Roon was a way to better manage my music collection (90% opera and classical).  Thatís in spite of some information that Roon does not manage classical music very well either.  The reason I have wanted to move to Roon is itís capability of streaming to multiple stereo systems simultaneously and independently.  I have four Roon Ready stereo music systems in my small house.  But it seems I need to look into MinimServer.

I would MUCH appreciate a brief tutorial on how to use the Raspberry pi so I could try MinimServer.  I know itís a tiny computer, I know itís frequently used by music streamers, but somehow itís all I can do to understand that my new DAC is the necessary interface between the Naim Uniti Core and my very conventional analog stereo system.  I canít wrap my mind around how I can use a Raspberry pi or how to make use of its possibilities, or even where I would cable it in to my system.

The present hardware is cabled together like this:

Naim Uniti Core > Audio Alchemy DDP-1 DAC + PS-5 LPS > Tube Amp & Speakers

If your Uniti Core is connected to the Audio Alchemy DDP-1 DAC via a S/PDIF cable, then this means that you are not using the Core as a UPnP server but as a S/PDIF player.

In this case running a UPnP server on a Raspberry Pi would not be of any help because you do not appear to have any UPnP renderer in your replay chain.

If you are not fully satisfied with the way the Core supports classical music, what you could do is to replace the Core  with another storage + server + renderer solution with S/PDIF outputs.

I am using an Allo DigiOne Signature running MinimServer and upmpdcli (google upmpdcli for detailed information) under a minimal Raspbian distribution and I am very satisfied with this solution. There are not many servers with high quality S/PDIF outputs. Apart from the Core and the DigiOne (standard or Signature) what comes to my mind are the new InnuOS Zen mini mk3 and the dCS Network Bridge. 

My suggestion would be that, for the time being, you stay with the Core and at the same time learn how to set up a Raspberry Pi running MinimServer. This will cost you about 35$ and give you a way of experiencing how MinimServer works and how you could interact with a well organized music collection. If you have an Android mobile device, you will be able to control MinimServer via BubbleUPnP and replay on the Android device the files served by the RPi, no matter whether these are stored in the RPi itself, on an drive attached to the RPi, on the Core or elsewhere. Later, if you are satisfied with the RPi + MinimServer system, you could add a DigiOne (or a DigiOne Signature) hat to the RPi, install upmpdcli, connect the system to your DAC and compare it to the Core sound-quality wise.

Posted on: 13 December 2018 by Echolane

If your Uniti Core is connected to an Audio Alchemy DDP-1 DAC via a S/PDIF Cable, then this means you are not using the core as a UPnP server but as a S/PDIF player.

The Naim Uniti Core has only one choice of output connections, a BNC S/PDIF Cable.

In this case running a UPnP server on a Raspberry Pi would not be of any help because you do not appear to have any UPnP renderer in your replay chain.

I think I might have a UPnP renderer in my reply chain.  For simplicityís sake, I left out the Audio Alchemy DMP-1, a Roon ready Network streamer.  Since I think Roon is UPnP, perhaps the DMP-1 makes my system UPnP??  This product was added because of my interest in Roon.

Naim Uniti Core > Audio Alchemy DMP-1 > Audio Alchemy DDP-1 DAC & LPS > Tube amp & Speakers.  

I had plans to replace the Uniti Core with the Sonic Transporter + itís LPS.  The DMP-1 puts me in a position to do that.  

 

Posted on: 13 December 2018 by ChrisSU

Roon does not use UPnP, it replaces it with its own ĎRAATí making the UPnP server on a Core or NAS redundant. 

Posted on: 13 December 2018 by Echolane
ChrisSU posted:

Roon does not use UPnP, it replaces it with its own ĎRAATí making the UPnP server on a Core or NAS redundant. 

Hmmm.....Thanks for enlightening me, but it is yet another example of why I find streaming so complicated.  I wish I felt comfortable staying in the Naim ecosystem because it seems to make everything less complicated.  

Posted on: 13 December 2018 by Clive B

I admire your discipline in the way you have managed your metadata. I have found numerous conventions in the way that metadata is applied to classical albums. For instance, I have several versions of Wagner's Ring cycle, some of which even apply different conventions across each of the four operas. Sometimes these are filed under Wagner, sometimes Richard Wagner, sometimes under the conductor or even the name of the singer playing the part of Wotan, BrŁnnhilde, Siegfried or other. This makes searching really challenging. Because I didn't start out by applying the sort of discipline you describe, I think I have lost the metadata battle, but thankfully I do find that n-serve can be useful to remind me how each opera is filed. 

Posted on: 13 December 2018 by nbpf
Echolane posted:
ChrisSU posted:

Roon does not use UPnP, it replaces it with its own ĎRAATí making the UPnP server on a Core or NAS redundant. 

Hmmm.....Thanks for enlightening me, but it is yet another example of why I find streaming so complicated.  I wish I felt comfortable staying in the Naim ecosystem because it seems to make everything less complicated.  

Try to look at one problem at time.

You have asked advice about metadata editing. Play around with a small set of albums and fill in the metadata that fit your understanding of classical music. Put the albums on a stick and try different UPnP servers (Core, MinimServer, Asset, the one running on the DMP-1) and Roon. The latter does not care about your metadata. Understand how the different servers and Roon present you your music collection and allow you to browse and to search it.

Then you will be in a good position to make informed choices. Setting up a streaming system and organizing a music collection is a little bit like organizing a collection of CDs. One has to make choices. The good news is that if you use a good UPnP server, some of these choices are immaterial. For instance, with MinimServer, you can choose how you want your composers to be listed (first name, second name, order) independently on how you have actually filled in the composer index.

Posted on: 14 December 2018 by ChrisSU
Echolane posted:
ChrisSU posted:

Roon does not use UPnP, it replaces it with its own ĎRAATí making the UPnP server on a Core or NAS redundant. 

Hmmm.....Thanks for enlightening me, but it is yet another example of why I find streaming so complicated.  I wish I felt comfortable staying in the Naim ecosystem because it seems to make everything less complicated.  

Thereís some truth in that, as there would be if you stay in an all Linn/Sonos/Yamaha ecosystem, as it means the devices should have been developed and tested to work together. If Naim were to add Roon support to the Core, that would no doubt add to its appeal. 

Having said that, the U in UPnP stands for universal, and in my experience, it works perfectly well across different brands over a decent network. 

Posted on: 14 December 2018 by Echolane
Clive B posted:

I admire your discipline in the way you have managed your metadata. I have found numerous conventions in the way that metadata is applied to classical albums. For instance, I have several versions of Wagner's Ring cycle, some of which even apply different conventions across each of the four operas. Sometimes these are filed under Wagner, sometimes Richard Wagner, sometimes under the conductor or even the name of the singer playing the part of Wotan, BrŁnnhilde, Siegfried or other. This makes searching really challenging. Because I didn't start out by applying the sort of discipline you describe, I think I have lost the metadata battle, but thankfully I do find that n-serve can be useful to remind me how each opera is filed. 

I admit to being obsessive about getting consistency.  Consistency is the only way I can find something I want to play without an excessive amount of time spent scrolling and eyeballing my way through my album collection, latest count 533 albums.  Early on, I found Naimís search function missing too many albums to rely on it so I felt I HAD to do something.  I found that it didnít take that long.  Perhaps your collection is much bigger than mine, but after all, I didnít have to edit every title and you no doubt wouldnít have to edit everything either.  

What I did with the Artist field was more optional than editing the Title field, but I am glad I did it as it is working really very acceptably.   I have extensively edited my opera CDs there, adding every artist in an opera, for example.  I separated names with a semi-colon; I added conductor last.  That took longer than dealing with titles because the artist field was almost always wrong or incomplete. The really beneficial result is that when I search on an obscure artist, Naim seems to be able to pick it out of my string of artist names and it will return the full string the artist is part of.    I tend to doubt it will return  every instance of an artist in a search query because it canít even do that right when only a single artist appears in the artist field!  But the fact that it does them at all is huge to me.

Try editing just your Wagner albums.  You might be surprised at how fast the editing goes ????.

You mentioned nserve as being useful in finding you albums.  What is nserve?

Posted on: 14 December 2018 by David Hendon

Naimís N-serve is not relevant to your situation because you have a Core and n-serve only works with the legacy servers like Unitiserve and HDX.

best

David

Posted on: 14 December 2018 by Echolane

If Naim were to add Roon support to the Core, that would no doubt add to its appeal.

If only!  Itís definitely on my list of wishes for Naim.  Along with supporting Internet Radio and Qobuz, and Idagio and Primephonic....

Posted on: 14 December 2018 by ChrisSU
Echolane posted:

If Naim were to add Roon support to the Core, that would no doubt add to its appeal.

If only!  Itís definitely on my list of wishes for Naim.  Along with supporting Internet Radio and Qobuz, and Idagio and Primephonic....

iRadio was a later addition to the Unitiserve, so I wouldnít be surprised if additional functionality was added to the Core through its lifespan. I doubt they will add web streaming services to it in the way Innuos have, as this with Naim, this seems to be reserved for their streamers. 

Posted on: 14 December 2018 by David Hendon

Naim have said several times that the Core is a server and not a streamer and that they wonít add these features to it. Things can change of course, but I wouldnít rely on it.

best

David

Posted on: 14 December 2018 by Echolane
David Hendon posted:

Naim have said several times that the Core is a server and not a streamer and that they wonít add these features to it. Things can change of course, but I wouldnít rely on it.

best

David

Iím not counting on it.  But I (and the person who recommended the Uniti Core) to me were naive about its limitations.   Itís been a good learning experience, but having learned more, I am choosing to explore alternatives.   

Posted on: 14 December 2018 by Echolane
nbpf posted:
Echolane posted:
ChrisSU posted:

Roon does not use UPnP, it replaces it with its own ĎRAATí making the UPnP server on a Core or NAS redundant. 

Hmmm.....Thanks for enlightening me, but it is yet another example of why I find streaming so complicated.  I wish I felt comfortable staying in the Naim ecosystem because it seems to make everything less complicated.  

Try to look at one problem at time.

You have asked advice about metadata editing. Play around with a small set of albums and fill in the metadata that fit your understanding of classical music. Put the albums on a stick and try different UPnP servers (Core, MinimServer, Asset, the one running on the DMP-1) and Roon. The latter does not care about your metadata. Understand how the different servers and Roon present you your music collection and allow you to browse and to search it.

Then you will be in a good position to make informed choices. Setting up a streaming system and organizing a music collection is a little bit like organizing a collection of CDs. One has to make choices. The good news is that if you use a good UPnP server, some of these choices are immaterial. For instance, with MinimServer, you can choose how you want your composers to be listed (first name, second name, order) independently on how you have actually filled in the composer index.

Trying to look at one problem at a time is very good advice and I intend to follow up as you suggest.  MinimServer definitely sounds appealing, especially as you stated, that you can have your metadata one way and ask MinimServer to list it differently.