SuperCap DR Rack Position

I was advised by my dealer that Jason at Naim recommends putting the Supercap at the bottom of the “brawn” rack although others here disagreed when I shared this previously on the forum. 

Keith

Going to follow this with interest....

The Supercap rack position is very fussy I found - no idea why but it surprised me how much so. I use mine in context of powering a Snaxo - I found it likes a lot of space from other transformers and does not like being 'sandwiched' between supplies if at all possible. Mine likes being at the very top of its Fraim stack and the system sound good with it there so it stays there! I moved it once to another position and the system sounded so bad with shrill harsh HF and general awful sound I though I'd somehow broke something - but returning to original placement returned the performance and I learned the Supercap is fussy.

In your set-up I'd try it higher with a gap between it and one of the other supplies. Probably a gap between the 300PS and the Supercap will give you a cleaner more open sound with better timing - but you need to try it and you may find otherwise.

Alternatively place Supercap at very bottom and then a space and the 300PS may work best.

DB.

[@mention:1566878603992423],Thanks for confirming I am not alone! My 300DR (somewhat obscured by the pouffé) gives 150mm from top of 300DR to bottom of SuperCap. I could give the SuperCap DR an extra 140mm above using the empty shelf above the 555DR below it instead. I did wonder whether the CDX2 used only as a transport would be much affected - seems unlikely.

My best explanation of why swapping the 555DR and SuperCap DR caused a problem was that  the 252 output comes via the left side of the SuperCap DR which was closer to the right hand channel of the 300 head (left hand speaker thanks to Naim’s design). The 555DR by comparison only has the Burndy, and that is nearer the centre than the preamp output DIN to XLR cable.

Phil

Last night I put the empty shelf above the SuperCap DR, and yes it’s a great improvement. I now have no issues at all. I also recommend that the Rega RP10 TT PS is kept well away from the SuperCap. Mine now sits on a stool set even further away rather than the table beside the SuperCap (see photo). I had rather hard loud bass which has gone. 

Phil

Good thread Phil.

My “brawn” rack is (top to bottom): 555DR, SCDR and 300DR PS.

I’ve already moved the brain rack order so it’s (top to bottom): 252, NDS and 300HU. This was to give the 252 more space and things did improve in doing that.

I could swap the 555DR and the SCDR but I think the downside would be not having enough height to ensure that the burndies between the NDS and 555 hand freely.

Not sure what is more important as there’s a compromise either way.

Regards

David

S3 posted:

Good thread Phil.

My “brawn” rack is (top to bottom): 555DR, SCDR and 300DR PS.

I’ve already moved the brain rack order so it’s (top to bottom): 252, NDS and 300HU. This was to give the 252 more space and things did improve in doing that.

I could swap the 555DR and the SCDR but I think the downside would be not having enough height to ensure that the burndies between the NDS and 555 hand freely.

Not sure what is more important as there’s a compromise either way.

Regards

David

Hi David, Thanks for the feedback. Everything is worth trying. Could you get some longer legs for your shelves? Richard Dane said the preamps don’t like digital nearby, so that includes the NDS. Strange hobby we have!

Phil

I'm wondering if I need to change my stacking order..as I'm still suffering with the dreaded sibilance on some tracks

It seems worse with my digital source ..but still slightly noticeable with vinyl

Order is ...

Rega P8 on wall shelf above

NDS on top shelf of fraim 

252 next

Core / Rega aria

Xpsdr (for NDS)

250dr

Supercap dr (for 252)

Is there perhaps an issue somewhere here that might be causing the sibilance I'm now experiencing?

Naca5. With Russell k red 100 speakers

Thoughts / help appreciated....

I swapped out a set of standard legs for a set of tall ones, so my "brain" stack is now :

Empty standard base, standard level with 300DR, tall level with ND 555, tall level with 552DR.

This freed up a standard level, so I added it to the "brawn" stack, and removed my HDX from the base level, putting it adjacent to the 552DR, and guess what, it sounded worse.

It's now gone back onto the base level, so the "brawn" stack is as it was before :

Base level with HDX, standard levels with 300DR power supply, 555DR power supply, 555DR power supply, and 552DR power supply.

This means that I have uneven stacks, with the "brawn" stack lower than it's neighbour by the height of a standard level.

I always knew that the 552DR was best on top of the "brain" stack, but it seems further improved by having "clear air" all around it, ............... who'd a thunk it?

[@mention:56335183633906300], is it a P8 Neo with the new RP10 type TT PS? Is a second rack a possibility? The Aria and Core could be moved out to gain breathing space. You could try analogue only to see how more space helps as you suggest there is some sibilance with vinyl even if not as much as digital. 

Phil 

dave marshall posted:

I always knew that the 552DR was best on top of the "brain" stack, but it seems further improved by having "clear air" all around it, ............... who'd a thunk it?

Well 552 top is recommended and keeping digital away from it. You have a lot of boxes and a 500 on the way! Darke Bear probably the man to help you.

Phil

Sorry what are the "legs" of the Fraim?

Japtimscarlet posted:

I'm wondering if I need to change my stacking order..as I'm still suffering with the dreaded sibilance on some tracks

It seems worse with my digital source ..but still slightly noticeable with vinyl

Order is ...

Rega P8 on wall shelf above

NDS on top shelf of fraim 

252 next

Core / Rega aria

Xpsdr (for NDS)

250dr

Supercap dr (for 252)

Is there perhaps an issue somewhere here that might be causing the sibilance I'm now experiencing?

Naca5. With Russell k red 100 speakers

Thoughts / help appreciated....

 

 

I take it the Core is talking to the NDS via its network connection so try moving the Core away, especially keeping it away from the 252 and the Aria. Maybe swap the NDS and 252 around ?

Bart posted:

Sorry what are the "legs" of the Fraim?

They’re the three legs which support each shelf level, and they come in standard, medium, or tall, including the threaded internal inserts which join the spikes and the cups.

I use them to get some distance between each of the boxes in the “brain” stack, and swapped out a set of  standard ones for tall ones today.

dave marshall posted:

Bart posted:

Sorry what are the "legs" of the Fraim?

They’re the three legs which support each shelf level, and they come in standard, medium, or tall, including the threaded internal inserts which join the spikes and the cups.

I use them to get some distance between each of the boxes in the “brain” stack, and swapped out a set of  standard ones for tall ones today.

Is it what Naim call "base stud"?  https://www.naimaudio.com/site..._english_issue1b.pdf

I didn't know that they came in different lengths...might be helpful as I'm moving to 2 x 4 shelf Fraim

Yes, the uprights and the threaded inserts come in three different lengths.

Filipe posted:

[@mention:56335183633906300], is it a P8 Neo with the new RP10 type TT PS? Is a second rack a possibility? The Aria and Core could be moved out to gain breathing space. You could try analogue only to see how more space helps as you suggest there is some sibilance with vinyl even if not as much as digital. 

Phil 

Yes it's the new P8 with neo power supply ...but that is placed well away from anything else in the system

A second rack sadly is not an option space wise at the moment...maybe when I get a dedicated listening room

Your right...I could try vinyl only and either switch off or remove completely the not needed components...may well try that..

Thanks

james n posted:

Japtimscarlet posted:

I'm wondering if I need to change my stacking order..as I'm still suffering with the dreaded sibilance on some tracks

It seems worse with my digital source ..but still slightly noticeable with vinyl

Order is ...

Rega P8 on wall shelf above

NDS on top shelf of fraim 

252 next

Core / Rega aria

Xpsdr (for NDS)

250dr

Supercap dr (for 252)

Is there perhaps an issue somewhere here that might be causing the sibilance I'm now experiencing?

Naca5. With Russell k red 100 speakers

Thoughts / help appreciated....

 

 

I take it the Core is talking to the NDS via its network connection so try moving the Core away, especially keeping it away from the 252 and the Aria. Maybe swap the NDS and 252 around ?

No ...the core is directly connected to the NDS via a chord cable...so moving it is not an easy option...but possible if I went back to networked connection

I have heard the 252 likes a top shelf...but I prefer the look of the NDS on the top...and it helps with the bundy routing ...but swoping is a thought

Just to complicate things further, I have moved the CDX2 to the top shelf (see photo at the beginning of the thread) so it is not near the 252. I did have the boxes like this before Christmas with the RP10 on top of the CDX2 as a temporary measure, and it was really good. 

Well I think that the CDX2 even as just a transport should not be near the 252 for the best performance. The vinyl sounds amazingly good as well even with the CDX2 powered up.

I’m due to demo a 552 as soon as Naim have one free. [@mention:1566878603992423], I suppose it and it’s Power Supply suffer in the same way as the 252 + SuperCap DR combo from the presence of other power supplies and digital boxes?

Phil

My gut feeling (and it is only that) is that getting those LPs off the rack and reducing the height of both stacks would help by reducing the mass, and increasing the stability of the whole setup. Of course, I realise that there are other considerations, both practical and aesthetic, why you might not want to do that!

ChrisSU posted:

My gut feeling (and it is only that) is that getting those LPs off the rack and reducing the height of both stacks would help by reducing the mass, and increasing the stability of the whole setup. Of course, I realise that there are other considerations, both practical and aesthetic, why you might not want to do that!

Chris, I do agree with you. I think the recommendation for Fraim is about 3 high. I could make three stacks with what I have. I will have to open negotiations. One downside would be making it grandchildren proof! An ND555 would reduce the box count but I don’t like the issues with Naim streamers.

At the moment I’m happy with the SQ.

Phil

I have

Brain: TT,552,superline,ND555 and 500 with the minimum shelf height each time and no room to expand upwards.

Brawn: NAD Tuner, DVD5, 500ps, 555ps, 552ps, supercap all with standard legs.

The tuner can upset even a power supply if directly above it and it's power cable goes into the second wall socket where it seems to do least damage rather than in the block.

552 one shelf lower was a disaster once I'd moved the 500ps up to its current place, it was still preferable there when I had a 250 but the effect was marginal than critical.

Superline and 555 are never used at the same time so privide a bit of spacing for each other.

The 500ps can't go any lower without Burndys laying on the deck, one just brushes the carpet as it is but all the others are clear.

Tried the Supercap and 552 ps the other way round but this way sounds considerably more convincing which seems to Bear out others' findings. I would however always suggest checking received wisdom for yourself.

In the OP's case the rack isn't Fraim and the records add another unknown, with the superline I'd put 252 above superline, then space and 300 head but once you have a transformer in the phonostage that no longer makes as much sense and the current arrangement is as good as it gets. My preferance was also for the CDX2 powered by the 555ps using the internal DAC rather than using the outboard DAC/555ps on a self powered CDX2, this traded some detail for swing so maybe we don't listen the same way anyway.

Thanks to contributors.

Just thinking about possibilities if I created three racks 1 to 3 from left to right top to bottom 

1. Aria, CDX2, NDAC, 555DR

2. TT, 252, 300 Head, records

3. SuperCap DR, Gap, 300DR PS

This is basically a splitting of the digital into a third rack. At present I have the racks across the room corner. The reorganised racks would run along the wall in the direction the speakers point. I would leave space (about 600mm) to get behind to deal with wiring. If this was significantly better I could think about Full Fraim.

I’d love to have a standard to compare against as I feel my system is all I want when the setup is perfect. It is impossible to get round the back being in a corner. 

So I can see that if the 252 and SuperCap are at the top (as recommended), digital kept away from the 252 and cables hanging freely without touching the floor that I have an endgame!

I am very happy to have this thread as a place for other to discuss their racking and others to give advice.

Maybe as SIS has given up digital power supplies I will put the 555 on the CDX2 one day!

Phil

It’s nearly 24 hours since I turned the system on after converting to three racks. It sounded completely dull at first - I thought one of my boxes or the speakers had become faulty! There were some signs of getting back to normal this morning (been playing Kate Bush’s The Dreaming continuously - it can sound awful if the system is not right!). Now back from Tesco’s and the improvement continues. This fits with the past when the first 24 hours seemed the most difficult period. I’m hopeful that there will be SQ benefits beyond the previous best. It was just that tweaks had unintended consequences such as touching cables despite the pipe insulation.

The photo shows a first step to three rack setup. I now have access to the back (260 mm to wall) and can stretch over. I’m also trying to see if greater separation as judged by does and don’t from lots of posts not just in this thread can improve what my boxes deliver. So I haven’t added the TT and phonostage yet. I’ve not put the records back either. I need a benchmark to judge further adjusts so I can assess changes.

The record rack got the 300 head off the ground enough to let the Burndies hang barely touching the carpet. Once I know what works I can get legs of the right length to deal with the visual aspects.

Phil

After an extended power-down it needs a day to get back into the performance envelope you normally expect I find. A quick power-down gets everything back in a couple of hours and if off for a day or more I find I really only feel it is performing right after several days.

One thing that can have a negative effect is too many empty levels close together in the same rack. I normally find the lowest base-level open and one other higher-up works well. Try putting a weight (preferable a HiFi box) on the empty second level up on the right and see if it changes the presentation.

I only really know Fraim so it may not apply to other racks, but it may.

DB.