Any experience using AES/EBU with Lavry DA-10?

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
Your last post suggests there could be problems, so maybe the 'keep it simple' principle applies.

Very wise statement, Allen. Keep it simple could be a starting point.

quote:

Originally posted by imperialline:
Did some research. Actually, somebody out there has some issues with the Konnekt 8 on the Mac with Core Audio firewire output.

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I've been experiencing problems with my Konnekt 8 Firewire audio interface since I purchased it. I've been getting audio dropouts on my output while recording with GarageBand 4. On top of that, I've been experiencing the odd click noise while recording. After months of reading/posting on TC Electronics forums (and other firewire audio forums), I get the sense that this might not be a audio interface driver issue. It might be an Apple Firewire Core Audio issue. Am I correct? I'm on OSX 10.4.11. I've read mostly leopard users have these audio problems, but is the latest and greatest tiger core audio driver the same as leopards?

As I have written here in one of the topics, the Firewire driver is buggy under the Leopard causing some headache to the audio interface manufacturers. However these problems are relavant mainly for the pros, when they are editing multitrack clips. The iTunes/Audio/Midi/Firewire relation is quite clear and I have never experienced any droput since I bought my first Konnekt 24D, some 18 months ago. Because of the Leopard problems, when you are using a Firewire audio interface the fan in the Macbook runs a bit faster than usual, around 3500-400 rpm and it has some noise, however way less than a mildly humming toroid transformer . It is not a problem if you use one of the latest MacBook Pros or the very latest 10.5.5. Leopard, in where it seems quite a few of the FW bugs are solved.

The Konnekt FW driver and Dice II chipset is used by few other high-end pro audio vendors, like Weiss, Mytek, Lynx, etc. I felt the Macbook - FW - Konnekt - SPDIF coax - DAC approach working much better for me, than the direct Toslink to a DAC. To power the Konnekt from the Mac or from its power supply (SMPS of course) make a difference and if you use the Mac to power the Konnekt even the FW wire quality makes a difference, the Belkin PureAV FW wire is one the very best you can buy for peanuts, using 6 9 pure solid core wires inside and a very efficient shielding. If you power the Konnekt from an external power supply than I can not hear any difference because of the different FW wires. I tried all sorts of other FW interfaces, like M-Audio, RME (400 and 800 FW), Orpheus, Edirol, etc, but finally always went back to the Konnekt 8. The Naim DC-1 coax interconnect works very well with it. The integrated headphone amp works well too with all sorts of different haedphones, like AKG 501, 701, Sennheiser HD600, different Audio Technicas, and Etymotic Research microPro 4 in-ear pro earphones ( I like it the best). The only Konnekt / DAC combination which I feel is close to CdS3/555 was Konnekt 8/ Altmann Attraction DAC and a bloody expensive Acrolink coax between them. Different presentation of course but very similar way of communicating the music flow. The Altmann DAC is my secret weapon, I am using it since it was introduced, its jitter killer mechanism, the JISCO makes wonders with cheap dvds and other jittery sources, but you can give a chance to the better known pro 2 channel DACs as well, like the Lavry, its direct competitors the Benchmark and Mytek, but I feel these can really shine from an AES source and in a balanced audio system, uisng them from a Tos or coax source and switched them to unbalanced and with custom made XLR to RCAs or with adapters is a bit of a compromise

One more suggestion: if your are using Leopard, forget its Front Row software, uninstall it and install the Front Row from Tiger. Under Leopard the FR using Core Audio, not the audio subsystem and Sample rate Converter of iTunes. Under Tiger FR is more like a skin for iTunes, using iTunes audio subsystem and SRC, not Core Audio. Plus the text in the old FR much better readable.

Suggestion 2: never change smapling rate in the Audio/Midi app when iTunes open. Always close it, then change the SR and open iTunes again. This way you can avoid to force the audio subsystem doing Sample rate Conversion twice.

quote:

Originally posted by ferenc:
I felt the Macbook - FW - Konnekt - SPDIF coax - DAC approach working much better for me, than the direct Toslink to a DAC.

Very interesting. ferenc. In what way do you think it is better?
Also you mention the "Altmann DAC". Is it a very expensive DAC?

quote:

Originally posted by imperialline:

quote:

Originally posted by ferenc:
I felt the Macbook - FW - Konnekt - SPDIF coax - DAC approach working much better for me, than the direct Toslink to a DAC.

Very interesting. ferenc. In what way do you think it is better?
Also you mention the "Altmann DAC". Is it a very expensive DAC?

Not really. The basic version is 750 Euro, but you can add options, like 192k, Jisco, Toslink etc. Plus you need a battery (spiral cell car battery rulez) as a power supply. Google for Altmann Attraction DAC. You will be surprised It is very unusual piece.

quote:

Originally posted by ferenc:
Plus you need a battery (spiral cell car battery rulez) as a power supply. Google for Altmann Attraction DAC. You will be surprised It is very unusual piece.

Hmmm! it is very unusual - A cell car battery as a power supply. I do not want that in my living room.

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
Wow ferenc, great post, a lot to take in there.

What, in your opinion, is the most cost effective route or combination, or maybe a triple tiered recommendations of budget, mid and high end combos.

Sorry if this goes over old ground on your previous postings, if it does, please say so, and I'll re-read.

Regards
Allen

1. The simplest solution is to get a Macbook or a Mac Mini and connect it to your SuperNait

1.1. If you have an old unused desktop Mac or PC you can get a PCI bus DAC card as well, like the Lynx, RME, EMU or M-Audio PCI pro audio cards. Can sound really good. Price level: up to 700 Euro.

2. Similarly simple, but more affordable to get a FW/USB/USB2 cheap audio interface. like Edirols, Konnekts, M-Audio devices and use them as D/A. You will need to make a 6.3, or 3.5 jack to RCA cable however and it will not sound as good as the first or the next version. Price level: from 100 Euro up to 700 Euro

3. The other simple solution is Macbook / Toslink to a pro DAC (like Lavry, Mytek, Benchmark) with efficient jitter filtering and reclocking. There is a Benchamrk DAC which works from the USB as well, the Mytek 96DAC has a very, very good volume pot so can be connected directly to a balanced amp and can be used as a 4 input digital switcher as well. Price level: up to 1000 - 1500 Euro.

4. According to my experience to use a Konnekt as an FW to SPDIF converter before your DAC (to avoid Toslink) you can get very good result, if you spend some money on the coax wire and experiment some with the Konnekt power supply (use a Mac to power it or its own PS). Combined DAC+Interface+coax cable price level: up to 2000 Euro

Up to this level you are limited to use 96k max, not 176k or 192k, however if you use the FW audio interfaces (Konnekt 8 or Edirol UA-101) as full DAC, not FW to SPDIf converter only, usually they can work up to 192k/32 bit

5. Then you can try to higher - end multi-channel (up to 8) pro DACs with integrated Firewire cards, like Lynx Aurora, Apogee Rosetta, or the mastering quality Mytek 8x192, Orpheus, Weiss or the Lavry Blue. price level: up to 5000 Euro

6. Very high-end DAC pro or audiophile, like Meitner, Lavry Gold, Accuphase, and countless audiophile units. Price level: 10k Euro and up.

The integrated network / hard disk based players like Squeezebox, Sonos, Linn and the HDX of course are in different group, can be very simple or can drive you crazy, depending on the convenience of the GUI, your IT/server setup skills and remote control possibilies. Using a Squeezebox Classical, or Duet is quite simple and the sound is really respectable.

quote:

Originally posted by imperialline:

quote:

Originally posted by ferenc:
Plus you need a battery (spiral cell car battery rulez) as a power supply. Google for Altmann Attraction DAC. You will be surprised It is very unusual piece.

Hmmm! it is very unusual - A cell car battery as a power supply. I do not want that in my living room.

You can get a very good PS from Paul Hynes if you do not tolerate the battery in your living room or you can use other batteries than car battery. The spiral cell batteries are designed to work in the car, inside the cabinet. I have a system in my other house using not only this DAC but Altmann amp as well, driven from the same car battery and driving an open baffle DIY speaker with a 15 inch high efficiency dual concentric pro speaker. Completely off the grid and sounds absolutely nice and effortless. Can work 24 hours a day from the same Optima Red battery for almost a week before it needs recharging. It always sounds the same, no problem with the grounding and dirty mains, there are no ups and downs in its sound. Very convenient. The battery is in a very nice closed woodbox, to minimise the risk of using it.

Ferenc

Do you happen to work in the audio business by any chance?

Seriously thank you for the extensive postings and wealth of information you presented above.

Several questions if you could be so kind:

1) "The other simple solution is Macbook / Toslink to a pro DAC (like Lavry, Mytek, Benchmark) with efficient jitter filtering and reclocking..."

Here I assume you are referring to the Lavry DA10 which is frequently mentioned here in this thread as well as the Benchmark DAC1/DAC1USB

2) When you mention Firewire audio interfaces I did not see the Presonus Firebox mentioned - I happen to have one of these lying around. How does it compare to the Konnekt which you are so fond of? Would it provide a similar benefit as the Konnekt when used in between the Mac and DAC?

3) "you can give a chance to the better known pro 2 channel DACs as well, like the Lavry, its direct competitors the Benchmark and Mytek, but I feel these can really shine from an AES source and in a balanced audio system, uisng them from a Tos or coax source and switched them to unbalanced and with custom made XLR to RCAs or with adapters is a bit of a compromise"

Once again I assume when you mention Lavry you are referring to the entry DA10 frequently mentioned here and not the higher end units. Can you please explain "AES source" as I do not understand what you mean here.

Thanks
Gregg

Gregg (& others who are interested):

Another good source of information on the subject of pro audio in general and the optimal way to use the DA10 in particular is the Lavry forum. I believe some Naim forum members have already started raising questions there.

Michael

Thanks Michael - I did not even know that a Lavry forum existed.

Regards
Gregg

I think I'm gonna start pimping Naim ware there, then.

Gregg,

I am the technical director of a broadcast / pro video/audio company and dealing with production and post-production systems almost 20 years ago. My main job is system integration and system design.

Back to your question:

I did not try the Presonus unit, but you can try it for sure. I do not know how it compares to the Konnekt, but I think it is easy to try, dozens of music instrument retailers carry the Konnekt, so easy to get one and try. I like the Konnekt because it is using a custom developed chipset, and a software driver, not general purpose chips and OS integrated drivers as the bigger part of the rest and I have a very postivie experience with them since they were introduced roughly 2 years ago. I know dozens of people using it not only in the studio but in their home as well. Very popular here and it is very nice, good looking unit, not an ordinary plastic box.

AES source:
I mean a CD player, an audio interface which could feed the DAC through its AES connection. AES/EBU digital connection is a 110 ohm, pro, balanced version of the SPDIF (to describe it simply). One of the most respected AES card is the Lynx PCI(e) and there are others like the RME for example, but some of the more expensive external FW audio interfaces have AES connectors as well, like RME or Konnekt 32, 48. These devices are not cheap however, the mentioned Lynx card is 5-600 Euro and the bigger Konnekts are way above 1000 Euro.

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:
I think I'm gonna start pimping Naim ware there, then.

Ha Ha - Kuma, you may find naimees more welcome to do that there, than they are on the Linn forum.

Ferenc

Thank you for the reply

Gregg

Wow,this forum is getting more interesting by the week.

quote:

Originally posted by ferenc:
I felt the Macbook - FW - Konnekt - SPDIF coax - DAC approach working much better for me, than the direct Toslink to a DAC.

Since I have an iBook - so no Toslink out - I picked up a Konnekt 8 a year ago. That was after earlier raving posts about Firewire interfaces and before the Lavry solution surfaced.
I power the Konnekt with a Russ Andrews Powerpack - yes the same one people use here for their P-75s - and I also choose a Belkin cable. This was all to save up for a Supernait or DAC, to be connected by a Naim DC-1 coax.

I needed funds elsewhere so that plan didn't materialise. And just as I was thinking the whole thing over again then came the raving reviews of the Macbook>OptiChord>Lavry DA10>Flashback route.

The Konnekt8 sounds pretty decent on its own. Some thoughts for the upgrade path: The iBook needs replacement I'm afraid. i hope the upcoming new Macbooks are as good audio-wise as the current white ones.
It won't be difficult selling off the Konnekt 8 and the Powerpak can be used for a P-75.
So based on what I've read so far I'll also go the Lavry route directly from Toslink. I've learned it's all in the combo so if that combo works well then fine by me.
This saves a few steps in the process rather than working from the Konnekt8 onwards. The optical will also prevent any grounding issues.

Good times ahead!