Wow! I have heard the future ...
Posted by: Huwge on 25 April 2008
OK that might be overplaying it, but, well, wow!
Just back from High End where Naim will rule the roost I am sure.
The Powerline, Superline and HDX were all given an airing and all seem to have created an unpleasant gnawing effect in my wallet.
The Powerline is definitely an improvement over the standard cable, but the dem did not allow Music Line to do a direct contrast with their Powerigel. I think that will be the proof of the pudding for me.
The Superline has been raved about elsewhere, so no need for me to add anything other than "I want one!"
The real surprise was the HDX - playing wav files it seemed to be just as good as a bare CDX2. The wow moment was the addition of an XPS2 which created a sound somewhere between the CDX2 and CDS3. No BS! Just jaw dropping, especially in the context of a show room. Add to that, you can also play CDs directly.
I think a lot of people, who have to compromise between their audiophile habit and managing the good will and temper of their better half will need to do a serious test - HDX vs. one of the dedicated CD players.
I am already considering the smile that I will get if I say I can replace one box with a similar looking one and lose 600 CDs from the living room. Add to that, that you can stream from a network server and all the silver discs could be relegated to the cellar / attic.
The system was a supercapped 282 and 250 with SL-2s and paired n-Subs. HDX was demmed with and without XPS2. External PS is without doubt an enhancement and I can imagine that there may be a number of CDX2s and possibly CDS3 appearing in PX soon.
If you can get away with a dedicated CD spinner and no one complaining about the software, you may not feel it is enough of an improvement but do yourself a favour and have a listen.
The interface options seem to cover all bases: touch screen, TV, PC etc. No Apple iTunes file compatibility, down to licensing apparently. The HDX steered from a tablet PC, looked cool but form seems to be more than function. It was slow, but that might be because it is new and the demonstrator from Music Line not so familiar with it.
Stereo HDX
Touch screen and Naim USB
For Lontano - dps 3 / aro / Lyra Skala
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by 555
quote:
Originally posted by thesherrif:
Naim are in business to stay in business. They know cd players have had their day and want a chunk of the future.
Which would explain why Naim spent so much money on R&D for the CD555 & applying the technolgy to other Naim CDPs?
Get off your horse & drink your milk cowboy!
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by Chris Kelly
quote:
the HDX will I am sure bring a new breed of clientele to the forum so watch out!
I hope Adam gives them their very own playpen. I come here to get away from ethernet, NAS, wifi and all the other bloody computer jargon that dogs my working day!
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Kelly:
quote:
the HDX will I am sure bring a new breed of clientele to the forum so watch out!
I hope Adam gives them their very own playpen. I come here to get away from ethernet, NAS, wifi and all the other bloody computer jargon that dogs my working day!
Chris - I agree: I work with the things every waking/working hour - one thing you can be sure of with computer programs is that they have bugs and go wrong - I've never had to reboot a Rega P25
ATB Rotf
Still I find Huw's write-ups really interesting and I'm not against the HDX. If it can deliver great sound then I'll, no doubt, be tempted.
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by Adam Meredith
I have pushed for this and intellects greater than mine are thinking up a suitable name for it.
Apparently certain words are considered pejorative - which rather stymied my suggestions.
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by --duncan--
quote:
Originally posted by cafez27:
You gotta be kiddin me right........CD is only 25 years old this year, and still going strong.
No it's not.
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by Huwge
quote:
Yes it will sound good compared to other similar type products Naim don't produce bad products I am sure the HDX sounds great, but a match for a CDX2/XPS2 or CDS3 I very much doubt it.
I would be very surprised if Naim themselves are positioning this product in opposition to their own portfolio of world class CD spinners.
I susoect that very few Naim CD player owners will be buying one of these, Naim are looking for a new audience chaps and whilst the odd one us may buy one, the HDX will I am sure bring a new breed of clientele to the forum so watch out!
Jez
I don't agree, I think that Naim themselves are a little surprised at how the HDX has turned out. I didn't get an answer when I asked several of the demonstration staff whether they thought that the HDX would cannibalise their CD product.
I think it may, if as a live product it punches at a CDX2+ weight. I would love a 555, three stacks of Fraim and living room storage for all my music but it ain't going to happen short of a multi-million windfall or a life of splendid isolation. I am not holding out for the former and would prefer not to experience the latter.
Until more people have heard the HDX, much of the debate is hot air. As with any hi-fi product, the punters vote with their ears and their wallets. I don't think Naim survive on providing a "latest and greatest" for the faithful. If someone else delivers a cheaper and better solution I won't ignore it, that's for sure.
Huw
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by u5227470736789439
There was a reason that the vinyl Long Player replaced the 78, which was at its end better than the emergent LP. This was convenience. There is a reason why the CD was the replacement for the LP in mainstream circles, however much the vinyl enthusiasts continue to protest its superiority. Convenience.
The server route will replace the CD, and if the quality of the early machines is already at CDX2 level as reports elsewhere on the Forum are indicating, then imagine in five years time.
Even the vinyl redoubt will be breeched for all those more interested in music than fiddling, handling black vinyl discs, and looking at artwork.
For me the only thing that stands between and the imminent order for an HDX [subject to confirming its quality with a dem] is the price!
Not that the price might be viewed as inappropriate, but rather that I simply have not had that sort of money free for the last eight years. I can only imagine the WAF factor will soon be seen as important as well!
Plus not more pucks to fish out of the player!
George
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by cafez27
quote:
Originally posted by Huwge:
quote:
Yes it will sound good compared to other similar type products Naim don't produce bad products I am sure the HDX sounds great, but a match for a CDX2/XPS2 or CDS3 I very much doubt it.
I would be very surprised if Naim themselves are positioning this product in opposition to their own portfolio of world class CD spinners.
I susoect that very few Naim CD player owners will be buying one of these, Naim are looking for a new audience chaps and whilst the odd one us may buy one, the HDX will I am sure bring a new breed of clientele to the forum so watch out!
Jez
I don't agree, I think that Naim themselves are a little surprised at how the HDX has turned out. I didn't get an answer when I asked several of the demonstration staff whether they thought that the HDX would cannibalise their CD product.
I think it may, if as a live product it punches at a CDX2+ weight. I would love a 555, three stacks of Fraim and living room storage for all my music but it ain't going to happen short of a multi-million windfall or a life of splendid isolation. I am not holding out for the former and would prefer not to experience the latter.
Until more people have heard the HDX, much of the debate is hot air. As with any hi-fi product, the punters vote with their ears and their wallets. I don't think Naim survive on providing a "latest and greatest" for the faithful. If someone else delivers a cheaper and better solution I won't ignore it, that's for sure.
Huw
Mmmmm think you have made my point for me Huw, which is pretty simple very few current, CDX2, CDS3 or CD555 owners will buy an HDX in the short to medium term, this is about a new customer base not its installed one regardless of sound quality.
Lets see how many Naim haave sold to existing naimees in a years time, I suspect very few, they will however have sold loads to a whole new customer set, and god bless them, that means more R&D budget for lots of other hifi goodies.
For me and for most I suspect that CD is still the future, but lets wait and see.
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by cafez27
quote:
Originally posted by djc:
quote:
Originally posted by cafez27:
You gotta be kiddin me right........CD is only 25 years old this year, and still going strong.
No it's not.
Data and stats are the bain of my life!!!
So where do I start with these stats, well firstly they only go up to the 2000 (we are in 2008). Also I'm not sure how you interpret data but at 80% CD is hardly in steep decline!
Isn't this all about application? If I have a dinner party its great to stream a playlist wirelessly to my system from my Macbook Pro to an airport express, very convenient.
If how ever I want to sit and listen to an album with a glass of wine I'll put a CD on, however if want the whole audiophile experience then I will put on a record and study the sleeve and maybe even read the lyrics!!
Its an interesting approach this HDX business I sincerely hope that it does not replace CD or Vinyl in the home but become an addition to what already exists, someone put it well in another thread, that everything is becoming sterile and souless......
Never thought I'd say this but long live CD!!!
Jez
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by Huwge
Jez - to a point, I agree BUT I was considering my upgrade path as relatively clear before last weekend.
Superline (this year) + PS (depends on itch, not anticipated in the short term and don't really have the space for a Supercap)
CD Head Unit - CDS3 (next year) or 555 (next year-ish). The thing is, I don't really have room for a top-loading CD player. Also, I am not entirely convinced by the CDS3, even with 555 PS.
For me, if the HDX genuinely offers musical replay from either its internal or external hard drives and spins CDs at an auditory point between the CDX2 and the CDS3, given that I already have an external PS, then I might say that, for convenience, the HDX is a better option than a dedicated CD head unit. Thus, cannibalising a potential head unit sale.
What I am not sure is whether I would keep the current head unit or trade in. My feeling is that the HDX could significantly impact the price of 2nd hand CDX players. This is good for those seeking an upgrade via the 2nd hand market but the depreciation may be too much to bear for the seller.
Will be interesting to see how this develops and to determine whether the units at High End offer the same level of satisfaction once the initial "wow" factor has diminished.
Huw
Posted on: 28 April 2008 by 555
quote:
Originally posted by djc:
quote:
Originally posted by cafez27:
You gotta be kiddin me right........CD is only 25 years old this year, and still going strong.
No it's not.
Yes it is!
This graph is at best questionable.
It appears to be comparing ipod sales (Hardware) with music sales (software).
The Nielsen SoundScan volume figures for 2007 record sales in the USA were 449.2 million for CD Albums, whereas only a relatively meagre 50 million digital (download) albums.
Posted on: 28 April 2008 by paremus
I'm not sure CD v.s. download sales figures are really that relevant. At the end of the day they are just different delivery mechanisms for the same digits (assuming your down loading CD res files).
I'd still purchase CD's - but immediately rip them to the HDD system; confident that a 100% data accurate copy was now on Hard Drive. This providing the basis for - better than "streamed off CD" - audio reproduction.
I'm very interested in hearing the HDX - but I don't foreseen a front end upgrade until the reference HDS555? is available at which point my CDSII will be retired.
For balance - I will be listening to Linn's reference HD offering; but assuming Naim deliver the goods - I'll almost certainly go this way as historically I've always preferred Naim's approach.
Posted on: 28 April 2008 by --duncan--
quote:
Originally posted by 555:
Yes it is!
This graph is at best questionable.
It appears to be comparing ipod sales (Hardware) with music sales (software).
The Nielsen SoundScan volume figures for 2007 record sales in the USA were 449.2 million for CD Albums, whereas only a relatively meagre 50 million digital (download) albums.
You are assuming that people
pay for their down loads? How quaint! For this reason, hardware (iPod) sales is not such an unreasonable comparison
duncan
Posted on: 28 April 2008 by --duncan--
quote:
Originally posted by cafez27:
Data and stats are the bain of my life!!!
So where do I start with these stats, well firstly they only go up to the 2000 (we are in 2008). Also I'm not sure how you interpret data but at 80% CD is hardly in steep decline!
Isn't this all about application? If I have a dinner party its great to stream a playlist wirelessly to my system from my Macbook Pro to an airport express, very convenient.
If how ever I want to sit and listen to an album with a glass of wine I'll put a CD on, however if want the whole audiophile experience then I will put on a record and study the sleeve and maybe even read the lyrics!!
Its an interesting approach this HDX business I sincerely hope that it does not replace CD or Vinyl in the home but become an addition to what already exists, someone put it well in another thread, that everything is becoming sterile and souless......
Never thought I'd say this but long live CD!!!
Jez
Data goes up to 2007 by my reading of the graphs. 80% of peak may not be a big reduction but the trend is very clear and will continue, if not accelerate. CD sales are going one way: that of the cassette.
As some bloke said in 2004 the people have voted with their iPods.
Posted on: 28 April 2008 by Steve S1
quote:
CD sales are going one way: that of the cassette.
Rubbish. It's too cheap to make for that and lasts better. It might go the way of vinyl....which ain't so bad.
Steve
Posted on: 28 April 2008 by --duncan--
quote:
Originally posted by Steve S1:
quote:
CD sales are going one way: that of the cassette.
It might go the way of vinyl....which ain't so bad.
Steve
You're right. But for most people that is the same as the cassette.
RIAA figures for 2007: 511 milion CDs (down 17% in one year), LP 1.3 million, Casette 0.4 million.
I guess it depends on whether you think "1 million LPs sold last year, that's a lot" or "2% of the market, that's f-all".
Posted on: 28 April 2008 by 555
quote:
Originally posted by djc:
You are assuming that people pay for their down loads? How quaint! For this reason, hardware (iPod) sales is not such an unreasonable comparison
It is not only unreasonable, but meaningless,
because that's not a like for like comparison.
I don't assume everyone pays for their downloads.
I disregard illegal downloads like any stolen property when considering these market trends.
That may make me appear quaint to you, but to me that makes you look crooked.
Posted on: 28 April 2008 by Adam Meredith
I think it would be foolish to ignore the smoking of illegally imported tobacco and cigarettes when considering health risks.
Illegal often means "at the expense of legal" - although it may well be less in the case of downloads (illegal = free) than tobacco (illegal = discounted).
That is - people will collect files for free that they would never purchase otherwise - i.e. at any sensible market price.
Posted on: 28 April 2008 by 555
What type of
tobacco are you referring to Adam?
Joking aside everything you've said is true to some extent, & although
people will collect files for free that they would never purchase otherwiseit's illegal in the sense of potentially ending up in court, getting a criminal conviction, etc.
In the same spirit would
I'd never purchase a Naim HiFi system at any sensible market price,
so that's why I stole one be a valid defense?
Posted on: 28 April 2008 by Adam Meredith
I do not understand whose point you are questioning.
My point was - it is a mistake to ignore illegal downloads and swaps - as they do (to the potentially limited degree admitted) impinge upon legitimate sales of music - whether downloads, CDs, LPs, single or whatever.
As to your unconnected question - no that would not be a valid defence. I think you knew that.
Posted on: 28 April 2008 by 555
A classic e-misunderstanding Adam!
Are you sure I can't tempt you to use an occasional graemlin?
I was questioning your point in saying
people will collect files for free that they would never purchase otherwise
because I can believe that for each one that wouldn't have been purchased,
there is one which would if a moody copy wasn't available.
I asked my connected question because it appeared
you were suggesting this activity isn't theft.
I agree we can't ignore illegal downloads and swaps;
but it's not comparing like with like.
Has anyone seen research on the likely effects of pirate proof DRM on music sales?
The music biz tells us pirate copies cost them vast sums.
I'm sure they over-egg this problem, but this isn't a victimless crime,
& let's not forget that this is preventing the release of music in 'master' sample rate.
